055: Sales Fails

When you consider the hourly-rate of everyone in the room, meetings can be shockingly expensive. And, if it's a sales meeting, both actual and opportunity costs are on the line. Which is why we practice our sales pitches and offer up a sacrifice to the Demo Gods. But sometimes, that's not enough. On today's show, Tim and Adam share their sad tales of sales fails; and illustrate why it's so important to go into any meeting with a rock-solid plan-of-attack.

Follow the show and be sure to join the discussion on Discord! Our website is workingcode.dev and we're @WorkingCodePod on Twitter and Instagram. Or, leave us a message at (512) 253-2633 (that's 512-253-CODE). New episodes drop weekly on Wednesday.

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With audio editing and engineering by ZCross Media.


Spot an error? Send a pull request on GitHub.

[00:00:00] Adam: so he was demoing this tool and he knows all of the little ins and outs about it.

[00:00:04] Adam: and so he kind of wants to show it off. The way that we have it set up as I'm sitting sort of off to the side, driving everything on my laptop, kind of, I'm the point and click and, control the screen guy. And he's talking. I can see the bus coming because he's like, okay, now we're going to go over here and do this.

[00:00:25] Adam: And I'm like, oh God, no, I don't want

[00:00:26] Adam: to click that because I know it's going to break. I know it's going to go slow. Right. And I mean, the whole thing, you're building segmentation. you're doing these complex calculations, query building and all of this stuff. And of course it breaks

[00:00:59] Intro

[00:00:59] Adam: Okay. Here we go. It is show number 55 and on today's. It is, as you can probably guess our last show for 2021 happy 2021, Mary 20, 22, as we come into

[00:01:11] Carol: Oh man.

[00:01:12] Adam: Christmas Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, if you celebrate.

[00:01:16] Tim: And Festivus for the rest of us.

[00:01:18] Adam: That's right. so, I guess for one final time in 2021, let's do our triumphs and fails and then we'll get into today's show and on today's show, we're gonna talk about sales failure. So Carol, why don't you go first?

[00:01:32] Carol's Fail

[00:01:32] Carol: Oh boy. I'm going to go with a fail. You guys, a big giant one. I just came back from my birthday trip and on my last day I ate some food that was cross-contaminated with something I'm very allergic to you. And I got to come home looking like the Michelin man. So that was great. all nice and swollen.

[00:01:53] Tim: Um,

[00:01:54] Carol: bad. So I'm sure people thought leaving Vegas was probably the best idea for me in that night. So, yeah. Yeah. So that's a sale for me. This is not fun. I hope to get better soon.

[00:02:04] Carol: I mean, it looks like you have lip injections. I mean, there's all plump and I mean, that's, That's what my girlfriend said. When I got nutmeg on my lips the very first night they were there, that we were there. They were like, who you don't have to pay for filler ever. Just go eat some nutmeg. And you're great.

[00:02:17] Tim: allergic

[00:02:18] Carol: I'm allergic to that magazine. Very, very legit at Meg. So then, this was fish apparently, so that's terrible, but

[00:02:25] Tim: I am so sorry.

[00:02:26] Carol: thanks. Can I get

[00:02:27] Adam: happy birthday.

[00:02:29] Carol: Thank you. Thank you. 37 years old now.

[00:02:32] Tim: What you're not a day past 19.

[00:02:34] Carol: so crazy. So crazy.

[00:02:36] Ben: Do you have an epi pen with you at all times? How does that

[00:02:39] Carol: Yup. Yup. I actually carry two with me at all times, just in case I have to use one. And then, on the way to the ER, I have to use it again because anytime you use an epi pen, you have to go to the ER, because it can cause like a heart arrhythmia and all kinds of things just from it injecting.

[00:02:56] Ben: Oh, man.

[00:02:56] Carol: Everything into your, yeah.

[00:02:58] Carol: So yeah, I have two auto injectors, so you don't even have to know how to use it. You literally pull the cap off of it. And it says if having an allergic reaction placed this to your thigh and hold and it just auto injects into your leg for you. So yeah, no more stabbing me. Listen to the instructions please.

[00:03:16] Carol: And place it where it tells

[00:03:17] Tim: oh, it actually talks to you.

[00:03:18] Carol: Yeah. Talk to you. Yeah. So, so I can just hand it to my drunk friends and Lagos and say, follow the instructions I'm going out.

[00:03:27] Tim: And then they like, they follow the instructions to the letter and they put it to their thigh.

[00:03:35] Carol: So yeah, that's it. That's all I got. What about.

[00:03:41] Ben's Triumph

[00:03:41] Ben: I'm going to go with the triumph. I've spent the last couple of weeks, I guess now just working on my blog infrastructure and modernizing it and bringing it up to newer ColdFusion and newer JavaScript and newer styling syntaxes. Like, I can't tell you looking at the HTML and seeing we haven't. Open comment, closed comment, just to make sure that there's no white space between elements.

[00:04:06] Ben: Cause I needed to have no a space when they're displayed as in-line block. I mean, just like it's super, super old. That I can now, in two lines replaced with a CSS, Flexbox that kind of stuff. But, I just been having a lot of fun with it. I added common moderation. I don't know if I mentioned that in a previous episode, I just implemented a dark theme, which I've wanted to do forever.

[00:04:28] Ben: CSS, custom properties came out. I dunno, like, I feel like five years ago, like a really long time ago and I'm only just now starting to really embrace it. And, I don't know. It's just, it's exciting. And it's. Freeing. I want to say, not feeling like I have to write new blog content. Like I can just actually have fun playing with the technology itself and not feeling like I have to produce anything at the end of it.

[00:04:53] Ben: And, Yeah.

[00:04:54] Ben: I've just been having a great time.

[00:04:57] Carol: What is a comment moderator? Is that what you said you had.

[00:05:01] Ben: yeah. So historically, if you post a comment to my blog, it would just immediately get published and a. I'm happy to say that for the most part that has never caused much of a problem I've had to tweak some spam settings and some filters, but for the most part, it's been pretty non-eventful until like a couple of weeks ago.

[00:05:22] Ben: And someone just started posting thousands of spam comments from hundreds of unique IP addresses all around the world. I mean, it was really,

[00:05:31] Tim: Haters.

[00:05:32] Ben: yeah, it was very oddly complex.

[00:05:35] Tim: you made it. You got haters.

[00:05:36] Ben: So, I finally had to put in some sort of common moderation. So now when you post a comment, if I've never seen you before it doesn't get published and it sends me a link to either approve or reject it.

[00:05:48] Ben: and then when I approve it, I can either approve that specific comment or I can approve that particular email address from that IP address. Cause I'm always nervous now. Like, well, what if someone tries to leave a comment using someone else's email address? I want to make sure That if the new IP, then it. has to be moderated again, but, I don't know.

[00:06:05] Ben: It's just a huge it's just a, it's just a bummer, honestly, that there's people in the world. Yeah. That sucks so much.

[00:06:12] Carol: Yeah.

[00:06:12] Tim: nice things, Ben.

[00:06:13] Carol: Hmm.

[00:06:14] Ben: suck. So.

[00:06:15] Carol: So couldn't you do something like a capture or something? I mean, are you just avoiding that route? I'm just curious.

[00:06:21] Ben: know, I, cause it's hard to know if people are doing automated things. I mean, this was very clearly automated, but in the past I think people would just do it manually. And then the capture doesn't really do much. I looked at, a couple of people recommended somebody called it a scheme it or ask them, don't know how to pronounce it.

[00:06:39] Ben: What? Just

[00:06:39] Adam: Oh,

[00:06:40] Ben: Akismet kismet. Yeah. And I looked at that. I don't know how prickly they are about this, but apparently you can't use the free version if you have ads on your site and technically I've ads on my site. I mean just for like work stuff, but, I don't know. Anyway, the moderation, honestly, like I kind of wanted to do the moderation also.

[00:07:00] Ben: Cause sometimes like people just are jerks, even if it's not spam, like people are just jerks and they want to post, hateful comments. And, those don't need to be published. So,

[00:07:10] Carol: I agree. I agree. I like that. I can go read through something you've posted and read the nice comments to it. And even the ones who disagree, if you can disagree in a pleasant way, those are great too. It's when you're being an (quack), I don't want to go read, like, I don't want to read when you write something like that.

[00:07:25] Carol: Good for you.

[00:07:26] Ben: I've several times over the course of like the last decade, I've had just a handful of people, post comments about how terrible my. And then when I say, well, would you.

[00:07:38] Ben: have any suggestions on how to improve it? Their response is always like, why should I waste my time teaching you how to code?

[00:07:43] Ben: I'm like, well, then don't be here. So

[00:07:47] Carol: Go home.

[00:07:48] Adam: then I'm not going to let your comments stay here on the page.

[00:07:50] Ben: I never have to let those comments see the light of day. So.

[00:07:53] Carol: I love it.

[00:07:58] Tim: What about my freedoms ban my freedoms.

[00:08:01] Ben: Mirka.

[00:08:02] Tim: Mirka.

[00:08:02] Carol: No.

[00:08:03] Ben: What about you, Tim? What do you got going on?

[00:08:05] Tim's Triumph

[00:08:05] Tim: Well, first of all, I'm glad you have a blog. I didn't know that. no, I know you have like, so I call it a tribe I've really enjoyed. So our patrons on,the show that they have are paid, not even just the people on the Discord channel, someone from patrons, other anyone can join, but, they've been talking about the ad that a code, and I've heard about it.

[00:08:23] Tim: Past several years. And for those of you who don't know, it's like around Christmas time, advent time, they have a puzzle it's available every day and it's a programming. And they give you up. And I think I said before there, I didn't know if there's a part one or part two that's because I just started, there is a part one and a part two.

[00:08:41] Tim: So I correct myself from last week. but what's cool about it is it gives you a little dataset, like a little sample dataset and they give you the answer right. Based on that data set and the programming challenge. And so what's cool about that is you can basically. Take that build a test. So you build a test that say, given this input, I'm going to, the, output's going to be, it's always a number.

[00:09:03] Tim: So it's always like a mathematical number that you're gonna come up with at the end. And so you can sort of build some tests around that. And so it's been helping me improve my testing, and some of the challenges they start pretty easy and they get progressively harder and I've really enjoyed doing it.

[00:09:19] Tim: I've. I didn't start till much later. I'm probably on day six now and it's going, of course, it's, it goes to the 25th. So, but it's been really fun. It's taught me that I don't, because I didn't come from a computer science background. I took, it type classes rather than computer science.

[00:09:38] Tim: my math is woefully woefully inadequate.

[00:09:42] Adam: I've always wondered. I guess would have what you would consider a classically trained computer science. I wanted to get into computer science. And that's what I majored in college. And some of my favorite classes in college were math classes that were required for the computer science degree, like linear algebra, not just algebra, like linear algebra.

[00:10:01] Adam: And, I've always wondered like the people that don't come from that path if after they get into programming, if they would like those math courses, like, oh, that's why, Ray's work that way or whatever, sort of.

[00:10:13] Tim: I mean, I can always speak for myself, me. Yes. Because I look at some of the answers so I can basically, I build something. Right. I try not to look at anyone else's answers because you can go Google and figure out how other people solved it on Reddit and things like that. But I want to solve it first, myself and I find that I get the right answer.

[00:10:32] Tim: I tend to get the right answer. but I do it a really kind of brute force kind of way, using a bunch of things. And things like that. And other people are just using, very elegant looking to me because I don't fully understand it yet, but just as get algorithm that they feed something in and it comes out right.

[00:10:47] Tim: And I'm like, I don't know how they got there. Right. So, and I mean, the only reason I didn't do computer science back then is because I was trying to get away from computer programs. I was in a phase where I thought, I didn't want to be a nerd. But also, I mean, to be honest, I've always been bad at math.

[00:11:03] Tim: I, I have what I, I've never been diagnosed, but I feel like I have a form of numerical dyslexia. I can totally understand higher math if I break it down. But actual simple addition and multiplication and division to me is really hard because like numbers just kind of all kind of jumped around and I look up, I have no problem with words, but when it comes to numbers, just I get really shook. But now having been in this I'm like, you know what? I would really like to get better at it. The problem is it's like, I've never run into these problems. The problems that they're faced and facing is like, path finding and, nearest neighbor problems. and what's the algorithm that, you know, where you find the shortest path Dykstra.

[00:11:47] Tim: Is that what, how I pronounce it? Adam? You corrected me earlier. Dykstra. Yeah. I people like look at a problem and go, oh, this Dykstra. Algorithm. they just know that off the top of their head, I'm like, I never would've guessed in a million years that there was an algorithm for that, unless I had found out that there was so, but I mean, it's great because it's opened my eyes.

[00:12:06] Tim: So I'm really enjoying the experience and I'm looking forward to even, I'm not gonna be able to do it in the timeframe that they're given, but I do want to finish it. So

[00:12:13] Carol: is it helping you, kind of wrap your head around test-driven development because you are starting with test up front before you start coding and that's not something you've done before, right?

[00:12:22] Tim: I've not, I have done, I've not done it. I've done it where I'm with other people who are working the test. Right. So yeah. So no me building the test. This has definitely helped me cause like, Come up with the answer, get it right. the test will pass. And the nice thing is there's a part two, which is building off part one.

[00:12:43] Tim: And so now what's going to happen is my test is going to fail. So I have to go refactor everything. And while I'm refactoring, I'm constantly running the test to make sure that stuff that I prior assumptions are continuing to pass. And if they don't, for instance, some started going a little bit long here in my triumph here, but. So early on my tests were passing on my, small dataset, but they were failing on my big dataset.

[00:13:07] Tim: So they give you like the answer. And you can build your test off of that. And they give you a much bigger data set and you run that. And the bigger dataset was failing, but the smaller dataset was passing on my test. And I didn't understand. So I kept, I just assumed something was wrong with my code. Well, what had happened as I accidentally had gone in and corrupted my real test data.

[00:13:30] Adam: Um,the bigger it is.

[00:13:32] Tim: My tests were telling me it worked. And the fact was that was getting the wrong answers. Not because my program was wrong, it's because my data input was wrong.

[00:13:40] Tim: So I went back copied and pasted the data set that they gave you, put it in there and it ran.

[00:13:46] Carol: And pass then.

[00:13:47] Tim: Yeah.

[00:13:47] Tim: it passed. I was like, man, I wasted two hours of my life because I didn't trust my tests.

[00:13:51] Ben: So, which is point of clarity. are you doing tests for funsies or these tests. Like how the advent of code is set

[00:13:59] Tim: No, it's for fun. You don't have to test at all. As long as you get the right. So they added a code, they gave you the test data. They give you the real data and they give you an input field that says, what's the answer basically. And you want the answer and how you get to that answer. They don't care, but I'm doing it because it lends itself to sort of test driven development because you have something to test.

[00:14:18] Carol: I like it. I like it.

[00:14:19] Tim: I mean, I can put the, I'll put my get hub repository out there that I'm doing the answers on. and if you want to take a look at it,

[00:14:26] Carol: What are you writing it in?

[00:14:28] Tim: I'm doing a ColdFusion.

[00:14:29] Ben: Heck you,

[00:14:30] Carol: was like, we'll put it in Scala. None of us will be able to read it.

[00:14:33] Tim: It's all input. It's on Postgres.

[00:14:35] Carol: Of

[00:14:35] Carol: course

[00:14:36] Carol: it is.

[00:14:36] Ben: I deleted a test today. I was pretty excited about that.

[00:14:39] Carol: Oh, great. Adam's going to be so mad.

[00:14:42] Ben: I was refactoring some code and I came across this message. I'm like, no, there's nothing in the application that causes method. This method hasn't been used in like seven years. So I started searching through the code basis, even anything was calling it and nothing was calling it.

[00:14:55] Ben: So I started deleting code is like pulling thread. Like you delete the method, then you look for things that may have called it, and then you can start to delete it. It's like a cascading deletes throughout the code base. And, the very last reference at the end of this thread that I was pulling was this test file was the only thing left that was calling this.

[00:15:12] Ben: And I opened up the test. It was actually kind of funny cause it sort of loops back to what Adam Cameron and Tim and I were talking about in the chat yesterday about having to deal with tests that actually have databases. And this was a test that was actually running against the database and it had all this complex code about setting up test data, running the test, and then tearing the test down.

[00:15:32] Ben: But like only half of the test component dealt with this. And I was, I just, I didn't want to deal with picking apart the tests that were relevant. So I just deleted the entire test. Honestly, this is God, this has got, we'll be good after this. So

[00:15:47] Carol: Uh,

[00:15:48] Adam: You breaking my heart here, man.

[00:15:51] Ben: you have to have a neutral, chaotic or whatever.

[00:15:54] Ben: I would

[00:15:55] Adam: That's not chaotic

[00:15:56] Tim: You're a chaos monkey. My friend. You're a total chaos monkey.

[00:16:00] Carol: Okay.

[00:16:00] Tim: Well, that's me. how about.

[00:16:02] Adam's Triumphs

[00:16:02] Adam: So I'm going to, I guess take like a two-parter here, dump both triumphs. the first being, I've mentioned several times over the last many weeks on this show that we. moving all of our service, I guess you would say to be multi-tenant and, I guess, I mean, th the whole goal there is to just make it easier for us to sign more customers and scale out what were you're offering so that we can.

[00:16:26] Adam: Yeah, make more money with the same number of people. Right. and that's going really well. we're actually making good progress. The, had this whole sort of like checklist of things that I could do before we could actually make like, sort of those first steps toward multitenant, like the prerequisites.

[00:16:42] Adam: And as of today, I think the last one is in the last one of those prerequisites, as in, for.

[00:16:49] Carol: Yeah.

[00:16:49] Adam: And it's not all on me, I've had help from a couple of my teammates, but, we, like we're on the cusp. and I forget exactly how many working days are left this year, but it's conceivable that we could like. Get rid of are, victim in the whole cattle versus pets thing. We'd get rid of our ECE two pets for our primary app server by the end of the year in theory.

[00:17:11] Carol: that's awesome.

[00:17:12] Adam: that doesn't mean that we're going to be totally, cattle by then. but it'll be a step in the right direction. And that would be awesome.

[00:17:20] Carol: Well, congrats. That is awesome.

[00:17:22] Adam: yeah. So that's part one part two is. We're like a real podcast. Now we have an actual, honest to goodness sponsor.

[00:17:32] Ben: Yeah.

[00:17:32] Ben: Yeah.

[00:17:32] Adam: Um, and so, yeah, so get this, we talk a lot on this show about books and, we like to read them, we do technical books, we've talked about other, like, sort of fictional stuff that we liked.

[00:17:44] Adam: and so it just so happens that we are getting sponsored by audible.

[00:17:49] Tim: Okay.

[00:17:50] Tim: Cool.

[00:17:51] Adam: Yeah. So basically, I mean, you guys have heard this pitch, a million times, I'm sure from all the other podcasts and YouTube and everything, but I mean, so you know how it works, right? You go to audible trial.com/working code pod, that's us, and you get a free trial.

[00:18:07] Adam: It's what is it? D it's a 30 day free trial of audible, and that gets you a free book of your choosing. Doesn't have to be anything, but we'll give you some of our suggestions here in a

[00:18:16] Carol: The Phoenix project. Sorry. Oh, I'm

[00:18:18] Carol: ahead of myself. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Hold on.

[00:18:20] Adam: put a pin in that we'll come back. and so you get a free 30 day trial. You get to pick a free book, you get, access to their audible originals, which is, other audio content.

[00:18:30] Adam: There's if they have all kinds of weird stuff, right? So are they podcasts on there? There's like theatrical performances. There's like meditations. all kinds of stuff, comedy, and, and then obviously podcasts. And this podcast, if you're interested is available on audible, if you didn't know that.

[00:18:46] Adam: and I was just actually, before we started recording here tonight, I was checking out their web player for podcasts and it's really nice, like all the speed settings and everything are really nice in there. So I really liked it. yeah, so like it'll benefit us. It costs you. an audible trial, audible trial.com/working code pod.

[00:19:05] Adam: And we would really appreciate that

[00:19:07] Tim: Wow. I mean, it sounds so official

[00:19:09] Tim: audible.com working COVID that's so

[00:19:11] Carol: that's us. You guys.

[00:19:13] Adam: So I want to throw out there when we did it, that, book club of the clean code by uncle Bob. I did I read that book, as an audio book from audible. didn't feel like I missed out on anything as a matter of fact, when we were discussing it with patrons and discord, w I don't remember who somebody was like, how does that even work?

[00:19:31] Adam: Right. Cause there's, I guess there's a lot of code samples in the book. and I, however, they pulled it off. I didn't feel like I missed anything in the book and probably I got through it better because I did the audio book. Uh, I, I, it would put me to sleep with.

[00:19:44] Carol: that book actually with the audibles subscription. And if you would've probably paid attention, it came with a PDF that you downloaded and it had all the code samples in there and it had all the questions. So you could have a copy of the PDF of all of the pages where the code samples were. So if you did feel like you were lost, listening, you could read along

[00:20:04] Tim: But Adam has a CS degree, so he's like really smart.

[00:20:06] Carol: God.

[00:20:07] Adam: and paying attention is not my strong.

[00:20:09] Carol: Adam. Well, I needed the PDF, so I actually print actually printed the PDF because I

[00:20:14] Adam: The whole book.

[00:20:15] Carol: well, no, the companion piece

[00:20:18] Adam: Oh,

[00:20:18] Carol: where it had the questions and the code samples. Yeah. So I printed it because I was on the plane during that time. So I worked on it on the plane, so I was like following along.

[00:20:27] Carol: So yeah.

[00:20:29] Adam: I mean, I love audio books in general, right? Like, so listened in the car. I listened in the shower. This is time. I wouldn't be able to read a book. and so it's like taking that time back, right?

[00:20:39] Carol: if we're giving suggestions, can I

[00:20:41] Adam: Yeah. Please

[00:20:42] Carol: to go listen to, okay. If you get it, I highly suggest the Phoenix project. I have loved this book and in the beginning I am with Adam. I got completely pissed off at how he references software engineers and developers and cause us careless. And that we have no lack of control over what we're doing.

[00:21:02] Carol: And we're just. Going crazy in the code making decisions. Oh, I was so mad because it does not us, but whatever the rest of the book was great. I got past that really, really good. go listen to that. And then I love the marsh and, it is probably one of my favorite reads. I R listens, I guess, is what we'll

[00:21:19] Carol: call

[00:21:19] Adam: you get the will Wieden

[00:21:20] Carol: I did. I got the Wil Wheaton one and I love listening to it personally. so I would recommend it. So those would be my.

[00:21:27] Tim: I'm going to take one non-technical for you, people who just want to relax a little bit and find something a little, something, a little fun and whimsical, and so bedtime stories for cynics by Nick Offerman.

[00:21:37] Adam: Oh,

[00:21:38] Tim: it's a collection of short stories. Nick Offerman is kinda like the narrator in between, but it's read by different people and they're just kind of really perverse, uh, cynical stories, that are like, At times stories for adults.

[00:21:54] Tim: It's, it's,it's really unique. And I actually think it's free. So you have to pay for it. It's not even a credit.

[00:21:59] Tim: Yeah.So if you're looking for a good story and it's actually free, wouldn't cost you a credit,bedtime stories for cynics. it's really entertaining.

[00:22:05] Carol: I'm going to have to go check that out.

[00:22:06] Ben: we do a lot of audio books on road trips, or you like when we have to go for Thanksgiving or travel for Christmas, that kind of stuff. And the last audio book we did was born a crime by Trevor Noah. The

[00:22:19] Ben: ho oh, it is so fascinating. He lived such a fascinating life. I had no idea. He speaks like seven languages and just went through some crazy, crazy stuff.

[00:22:33] Ben: Definitely definitely worth reading. And I think it's exclusively available on audible actually.

[00:22:37] Carol: It's called born a crime.

[00:22:40] Tim: Trevor Noah.

[00:22:41] Ben: really, really highly

[00:22:42] Ben: recommend.

[00:22:43] Tim: So many good stories from his life when he was like living in South Africa. And was it like a DJ?

[00:22:48] Ben: my God. The DJ story. Oh. Oh man. It's so good.

[00:22:55] Adam: FOMO just kicked in. I'm going to go get that one tonight.

[00:22:57] Ben: Oh, it's really it's. It's just, I only knew him as the host of the daily show. I didn't know anything about his background. I didn't even know where he came from. And it's just the w the journey that he's been on is mind boggling.

[00:23:13] Tim: You got it. So I'm going to get, just give you, you gotta listen to it for this one story, which made me, I've never laughed so hard in such a long time. So he was a. I'm not gonna give it away, but he's a DJ. He had it like a dance troop. So they'll go into, in, into like these towns, like they put on a big party and they had a dance troupe and one of the guys in his dance troop was named Hitler and hilarity ensues.

[00:23:36] Tim: That's all I'm going to say.

[00:23:37] Adam: Like it was his legit.

[00:23:39] Tim: That was a legitimate name and he explains why there was nothing antisemitic about it. It was just, it was from a viewpoint of a black person in South Africa. They thought that was a great name. Not

[00:23:49] Adam: Oh, it was like a stage name.

[00:23:51] Tim: no, it was his real name. It was his real name. His name was Hitler.

[00:23:53] Tim: They would just name Pete after famous people. And they knew nothing about the whole world war two genocide, anything just, that was the name they picked, but it really sets up one of the funniest stories in the entire

[00:24:06] Ben: It's

[00:24:06] Adam: Oh my God. Okay.well, I mean, if we're throwing out a non-tech books too, like just fun reads, I got to say, oh God, there's so many authors that are like my favorite author, but I'm going to go with Daniel Suarez. he's got some great books and I have never, ever picked up a book that he was a sole author on and not been immediately.

[00:24:28] Adam: And, like to a huge degree consumed by the. Everything he writes is gold, in my opinion. I guess if I have to give a specific, book recommendation, I would say, start with demon, D a E M O N. Right. So I always kind of pronounced that Damon too, but I think it's supposed to be just pronounced. But it's a clear tech reference, right?

[00:24:48] Adam: He's kind of a techno thriller guy, or at least this book is, and it's kind of like a, what if MMO RPGs and the real world kind of collided and it's like an alternate or augmented reality sort of situation. And it was a really good book, I guess I should give a content warning too. It's got one. let's say, sexual assault scene toward the beginning of the.

[00:25:09] Tim: And it's not hugely important to the story. I don't know why it was included, but Yeah. That, that, that scene to be totally thrown away would not affect the books. I don't even know. I put it in other than shock value.

[00:25:18] Adam: Yeah. But other than that fantastic book can't recommend it enough. So again, audible trial.com/working code pod. Get yourself a free trial. Get yourself a free audio book. Maybe you like it. Maybe you've never had audio books before. That's like podcasts. Smarter.

[00:25:37] Adam: Um,

[00:25:38] Carol: Only well-written.

[00:25:39] Adam: yeah,

[00:25:40] Tim: Yeah, they actually rehearse. All

[00:25:44] Adam: and they know what they're doing. So,

[00:25:45] Tim's Preparation Fail

[00:25:45] Tim: What are we talking about today?

[00:25:46] Adam: sales fails. Let's do it.

[00:25:48] Tim: Yeah, so sales fails. So I brought this topic up. So in most organizations you have a sales unit, right? I mean, we're all programmers. but you know, in order to pay the bills, there is this, you know, people that they go out and sell what we built. And, but because it's software, it just can't be a person who's like an establishing relationships and shaking hands and buying people drinks and doing those.

[00:26:13] Tim: Although you definitely need that. it's technical, right? So you typically need a sales engineer. And so when I w when I've talked about sales, veils, this isn't just, a sale that you failed on. It's through the process. There's typically a demo. Most of you guys have like, have either sat in on a demo from a vendor or have participated in presenting a demo to a prospective client.

[00:26:39] Adam: Yeah, my story is also in a demo.

[00:26:41] Tim: Yeah. So. They can fail if everyone's not in alignment. So if the sales team doesn't alert the engineering team that a sales needs, a sales demo needs to be done, and you don't have sales engineers or sales engineers is typically a person who is, dependent organization. They could be a hundred percent dedicated to the sales team and their job is to know how to operate the soft. And know how to speak to any sort of technical, influencer on the other side to, to explain how the technology works, what's behind the technology, what to expect and things like that. If those folks aren't in line, it can be a really big failure. So I'll give you an example from today, which is why, is why

[00:27:24] Carol: Done.

[00:27:26] Tim: Which is why I suggest this topic. so, you know,salesperson is basically like, Hey, we're doing a demo. we're going to do a demo on Thursday and, So make sure you get with so-and-soand everything's cool. Oh yeah. Okay, great. So we get in there and, the salesperson basically just says, all right, go ahead and do your demo, but never really made sure that the technical team was. in, in a smaller organization, we're not huge. So a small organization, typically you don't have a full-time sales engineering. Maybe this wouldn't be a problem if you did, but if you have a person whose job is like, be writing code most of the time and then occasionally doing a sales demo, you need to make sure that they're ready for that because, typically they're going to be demoing out of a system that may have been constantly worked on.

[00:28:09] Tim: They want to show you the latest and greatest features. And need to make sure that they work. And so today it's like we're sitting in a demo, a customer comes on, we have like 15 people on the call. most of them are from the customer and they all want, you know,they're showing. So we're stepping into the process and showing them how everything goes, things are going right.

[00:28:26] Tim: And all of a sudden this process, it's supposed to kick off an email that basically sends an email to the end-user to kick off a process. Just doesn't. So we're just sitting there waiting and it's email. Right. So it's like, you're not really sure, did it get my spam filter or whatever?

[00:28:45] Carol: the outlook server, it's not us. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:28:48] Tim: Yeah. And so we're just sitting there. And so it's like, I mean, just, you have one shot, right? They given you, they've given you all these people like the, if you totaled up the total salary cost per hour of the people in this meeting, you're definitely in, in the multi-multi thousands of dollars for just that one demo.

[00:29:09] Tim: And now you're sitting there, everyone's staring at a screen waiting for an email to come in. That's not coming in and it's not coming in because. The salesperson who makes a lot of money to get sales, basically never made sure that the person who's doing the demos that, you know,make sure it works before.

[00:29:26] Tim: I mean, it would take, would have taken just hour or two before, just say, Hey, we're doing the demo. Can you run through it once? Make sure everything works because they're just working on code up until the moment. And then they jumped on a call. They knew the call was there. They probably should have done it as well.

[00:29:38] Tim: So I'm going to put it on both of them, but honestly, the sales person, their job is to get committed. And make money. So it's their best interest to make sure that that person does that. So I leave it with them. that was their responsibility.

[00:29:53] Adam: Non-technical people just assume that technology, like you get it working and then it's perfect. forever more, right?

[00:29:59] Carol: Yeah, they think stability maintains like the, it just stays stable. They don't understand that changes are happening after a stable point.

[00:30:07] Tim: Right. So we're sitting there in the call and it's not coming through. So the guy, and so now, the sales engineer typically, they're more technical, so they're not really concerned about, a sales person knows how to say things without they can frame things in a certain way.

[00:30:20] Tim: Right. person who is an engineer, just like, oh, well, that didn't work.

[00:30:23] Carol: Yeah.

[00:30:24] Tim: they right as so. To his credit. I mean, he went in and he got to working. He managed to finagle it. So it, we simulated the steps, but it was not at that point, credibility was lost. I'm like, we're done. I mean, this is just, we blew our chance no matter what and what makes me upset is because it had just, someone said, Hey, let's just do a quick run through.

[00:30:45] Tim: It would have taken 15 minutes. The email would not have got there, but immediately I would have found a white one. Yeah. Now I'm freaking out. I'm in the call as well. And so after the call, I go and check my email. I get an email from our, email provider SIM grid, which says, Hey, someone from this IP address was trying to relay an email through you.

[00:31:05] Tim: We blocked it because it's not from the, your. Because unbeknownst to me, we have a shared sin grid. So multiple people use it. Someone turned on IP block, IP, white listing. So if it was not specifically from the writer and I could have caught that, I mean, I had the email sitting right

[00:31:20] Carol: You would've known.

[00:31:21] Tim: it was the exact same time.

[00:31:22] Tim: He was like trying to demo this portion of the thing with this very critical email that has to come out and go to the end user. we would have caught that in this whole, like egg on our face situation would not have happened. So. Yeah, sales fails. It's like, it's not a technology problem.

[00:31:39] Tim: It is a need to make sure that everyone knows what's going on. Everyone's rehearsal beforehand, because this is like a theater production. When it comes to sales, you have to make sure that everything goes smoothly. Now, we managed to scramble, but I mean, when they see you scrambling that does not necessarily build confidence in your product.

[00:31:58] Ben: what's your take on recording videos of demos and then just playing the video as the demo? Like how important is it that you have hands-on keyboard?

[00:32:08] Tim: Yeah. So I've done that in the past and people called me on that. So I used to, so yeah, so years ago I'm not in, I don't do sales now. but I did do that and I had the same fear of, like a demonstration of failure. And even,even when I was given a presentation, like a technical presentation, like a conference, you always worry about code demos.

[00:32:30] Tim: Because they typically something happens and they don't work and I recorded them then, and it didn't go smoothly for me. And definitely not on sales calls. It's like, they can tell that it's not real time.

[00:32:43] Tim: Right.

[00:32:43] Carol: Yeah. And the other problem that you run into a lot is they can go to your website and watch your little demos, right? I see the quick high-level view. So when you start clicking around on say, this is how we make a payment, they're like, oh, we already saw that. We actually want to see what this does. We want a more detailed, like, we want to see what the report screen shows us after the payments made.

[00:33:04] Tim: Right. So, so if you click this over here, what

[00:33:06] Carol: Yeah. Yeah. What happens if I click that little user head to you, you have to be interacting with them and be keeping them engaged. Otherwise, a video just, it's not doable on the sales call for it to use a video. Usually.

[00:33:18] Adam: But I think that there is a place for that prerecorded content. Like you see a lot of these companies have like, they call it a webinar. Maybe nobody was there watching it live, but it, it's just a, pre-record, it's like a sales call, right.

[00:33:29] Ben: right.

[00:33:29] Ben: right.

[00:33:30] Adam: and they just record it and kind of talk you through it as if they're doing a sales call.

[00:33:34] Carol: Yeah. But a lot of those are just hosted there just on your site. You go to

[00:33:38] Adam: yeah. Yeah, exactly. And

[00:33:39] Carol: request a demo, send

[00:33:41] Adam: Yeah. I don't think you should be trying to pass that off as a

[00:33:43] Carol: a live

[00:33:43] Adam: live

[00:33:44] Tim: I'm talking about this as a, this is a, you've got two companies talking to each other and you're interacting and you're showing them as a show and tell basically, and if you can't do a show and tell them, just show them a bunch of videos, just, it doesn't matter.

[00:33:57] Carol: Yeah. And you said something that is very accurate to him. when an engineer is sitting there doing that demo, they do not gracefully handle failures, not in the slightest, unlike oh, man. That should have thrown a big error. I don't know why it's just a white screen right now. Something isn't working and the salespeople were like kicking you under the table, going shut your mouth.

[00:34:18] Carol: It's working fine. And I'm like, it's broken. I don't know who touched it, but it's broken.

[00:34:24] Tim: Yeah, I mean, I. I tell the sales engineer, if they're not, I mean, a good sales engineer, their job is to, kind of brush over that. But sometimes you're just having to deal, you know,it's a technical person who can show something as like, I'm like you just click stuff and I'll do the talk.

[00:34:42] Adam's Query Fail

[00:34:42] Adam: So, I mean, maybe this is a good time to transition into my story because, so w we had my boss, Steve, on for that interview a couple of weeks back, and, he. Is a master at desperate. So he came from an engineering background and he has been doing CEO plus sales work, for 10 years now. and when those things go wrong, I'm sure he, kind of started in that position that we would all go into sort of immediate panic, true honesty, transparency.

[00:35:11] Adam: Oh, that's totally bro. Right. He started there, but he is a master now at dancing around,when stuff doesn't go. Right. And one of the lessons that I learned from working with him in these demo situations is, so we did one where we were again in front of a large audience. There must've been 20 to 30 people there that wanted to see our product.

[00:35:33] Adam: And I think we were showing off was our. Email marketing segmentation tool, right? So you give us a list of all 300,000 people that you're aware of and a bunch of different attributes about them. And then we give you tooling that lets you build a list. So you can say, I want all of the people that live in this zip code that have a degree from this year that are engineers, that,whatever, all sorts of, that like cats, whatever, as long as you have the data about it, we could filter on it.

[00:35:59] Carol: So like a target and you could build like a

[00:36:00] Adam: Right. Right. So you can,take that 300,000 people and whittle it down to like 175 people or a thousand people that are actually going to care about the message that you want to send. And that's how you keep a good email sender reputation is by not getting unsubscribes and spam reports and stuff, but at anyway, so he was demoing this tool and he knows all of the little ins and outs about it.

[00:36:22] Adam: and so he kind of wants to show it off. The way that we have it set up as I'm sitting sort of off to the side, driving everything on my laptop, kind of, I'm the point and click and, control the screen guy. And he's talking. I can see the bus coming because he's like, okay, now we're going to go over here and do this.

[00:36:43] Adam: And I'm like, oh God, no, I don't want

[00:36:44] Adam: to click that because I know it's going to break. I know it's going to go slow. Right. And I mean, the whole thing, you're building segmentation. you're doing these complex calculations, query building and all of this stuff. And of course it breaks. And, what I took away from that was like, that's a great way to do a demo. Flying by the seat of your pants going through, it is not the way to go, right. Have a specific plan. These are the fields I'm going to select and know what you're going to pick going into it so that you can purposefully pick things that are going to be performant. And that are known to be in a working state right now.

[00:37:21] Adam: And that sort of thing, because,again, it was just like, A missed opportunity, right? We lost a little bit of credibility in that situation. Now, fortunately, that particular customer did end up signing on with us is still with us today. But,

[00:37:33] Ben:

[00:37:33] Adam: yeah, and honestly, I credit a lot of that to Steve's ability to dance around that particular failure.

[00:37:40] Carol: Yeah. That's where I would have been. Like where's my coffee cup. Something just spelt in this laptop. I don't know what happened. Nothing's coming up. I broke it all. Sorry. No quickies.

[00:37:50] Tim: And I would say that, from my viewpoints, like it's, it was somewhat of an organizational failure. I w. To get the whole sales demonstration better. We're very much in an engineering type company. And we tend to think that way. And I've been trying to shift away from it as being more, just sort of sales and marketing focused of just telling the story.

[00:38:11] Tim: Right. Cause there's so much more to the story than just a demo. You don't just show up and throw up and give them, the technical demo. There's so much more to it. It's all. what's going to be the process. How do you get this built? What the teams are going to be involved, what's gonna be required of you and what meetings are you going to have to come to?

[00:38:27] Tim: who are the stakeholders in your side? So making it much less, more about necessarily the point and click and what the product cause. My mindset from where I've come from. That's what I'm most concerned about. The, not necessarily what the customer is concerned about. I mean, they're like, they're going to assume that if you're selling this and you sold it well, That it's going to work.

[00:38:51] Tim: There's going to be bumps and bruises along the way, but you know, it's going to work in the end. what's the whole process going to look like and getting away from just focusing on, the point and click and the features and the sets. Those are important, but they're only part of the story.

[00:39:04] Tim: And so really the sales pitch needs to be so much more than just that.

[00:39:09] Ben's Prank Fail

[00:39:09] Ben: One time. I was never a salesperson, but, I've always had relationships with clients. And this is just a crazy moment from many years ago. This is several companies ago. I was on a call with a client and we were doing a screen share. I don't even remember what technology was like. WebEx or something.

[00:39:27] Ben: I don't know what the thing was back then. And,the company was small. Everybody was in one big room essentially, and I'm on my computer and I'm doing the screen share with the client. And all of a sudden I can't type anything. Like I start typing and it's just like gobbledygook shows up wherever my field is.

[00:39:43] Ben: And I'm like panicking and I'm trying. Fix stuff. and I opened up my instant messenger and I'm trying to message my boss and everything inside the instant messenger is going crazy.

[00:39:54] Tim: Your dog was standing at her keyboard.

[00:39:57] Ben: At least that would have been. reasonable. so at one point I tell the client, I have to call them back. And so I get off the phone and I go over to my boss's desk and I'm like, I don't know what's going on. I don't know if I have a fibrous or something. And he was like, dude, I'm totally messing with you.

[00:40:11] Ben: I changed the, your, your keyboard settings.

[00:40:14] Tim: What.

[00:40:16] Carol: Oh,

[00:40:16] Ben: He he had from his computer. I don't know how networking and all that. So like he, he knew he was the tech guy he had while I was on the call, thought it would be funny to change, like the language settings on my keyboard. And I had like remapped all the keys.

[00:40:32] Tim: It was now divorce instead of Cordy.

[00:40:34] Carol: no.

[00:40:36] Carol: Yeah.

[00:40:37] Ben: It was,it was a young company and,

[00:40:39] Adam: That's an awesome.

[00:40:41] Tim: That is a.

[00:40:42] Carol: That is

[00:40:43] Tim: A bad time to do it, but a great prank.

[00:40:46] Ben: No, he knew I was on a call. That was the craziest part.

[00:40:49] Adam: Yeah. So was this like,what is the name of that software? Like they have it in most like computer labs schools and like, they can, it controls all the

[00:40:59] Carol: Like team

[00:40:59] Adam: settings and it can send out like windows updates. And

[00:41:03] Ben: I think so. I, it must've been something cause

[00:41:06] Adam: I feel like if somebody said it, I would recognize it, but I can't.

[00:41:08] Making Changes For Sales

[00:41:08] Ben: I'll tell you. One thing that I love about dealing with salespeople is that salespeople, when they don't have a technical background and they're talking to the customer and the customer wants something to be changed in the. salespeople and the customer don't have any sense of what level of effort it would take to make that change.

[00:41:27] Ben: so they come to you and they're like, Oh, the customer is really having this point of friction. And I, maybe, I don't know if this is on the roadmap and like, what they want is this button to have a, a capital I, instead of a lowercase, I like, is that even possible? I was like, bro, let me see what I can do.

[00:41:42] Ben: And then like half an hour later, I'll be like, that's in production. You're good to go. And they're like, what? That's crazy.

[00:41:47] Carol: C I, I have the opposite.

[00:41:49] Carol: I have that. I always get the, oh, look, we've talked about this. All you have to do is change this eye from a uppercase to a lowercase, but we only want it to happen in every third word. And if it started with the letter, K then change the I otherwise don't and it just turns into a disaster.

[00:42:08] Carol: I don't pick up anything easy anymore when it comes from a sales call, because it's not easy. It's going to have a lot more behind it.

[00:42:16] Adam: Well, this isn't a sales fail, but this was, another fun sales story kind of along that same line. Ben I've been in demos where like app is, you know, upon the shared screen where everybody can see it. And I've got my second screen off to my side, off to the side, my laptop or whatever with me.

[00:42:31] Adam: And it's the app is like, it's,let's just say it's a JavaScript app running in like dev mode. I can make the change live while we're sitting there in the demo. And w without losing the state of the application, it updates in place. And it's like, oh my God, you're a

[00:42:45] Carol: They think you're, they think you're a wizard and brilliant little. Do they know when you refresh? It's gone,

[00:42:50] Adam: no, it would still be there. Like the I'm not like editing in the elements tab in the browser. I'm like actually making the code change to the app

[00:42:57] Adam: and it does like hot module reloading and pushes it

[00:43:00] Adam: into the app.

[00:43:01] Carol: I was just thinking of like in console, like, oh, change, color blue to red. Ooh,

[00:43:06] Carol: fancy.

[00:43:08] Adam: that would also probably amaze a lot of

[00:43:10] Carol: It does it totally does.

[00:43:11] Carol: I think I've mentioned this before, but I'm only at one of my previous jobs. I kind of got titled the gatekeeper of the product for a little while because of the sales fells that kept happening.

[00:43:21] Carol: So it was. First, you're going to sit in on the cell so you can see how humiliating this is when we're trying to do a sale and things. Won't load things. Won't work because you guys have just pushed code into it. And then secondly, so that you can sign off on things going in and know the schedule of when we're going to be demoing.

[00:43:39] Carol: So that way you can hold things ahead of time and you will have an understanding of when things are being demoed. And if we forget about it, you can be like, Hey, yo, yeah, we just changed this page. Here's the new edits to it. And this is why we. So the communication has to be there or your sales will you.

[00:43:56] Carol: Like Tim said, it just doesn't work well, if they don't know what's going on.

[00:44:00] Adam: Yeah. When Tim was given that story about,how a five or 10 minute meeting beforehand could have prevented all that. I was just thinking like, that's gotta be part of the standard operating procedure that should be considered. Part of every demo is a pre demo.

[00:44:13] Carol: Yep. You should lock the door to it and say, nobody go in there, make any changes, because maybe I've set up test cases. maybe I've set up scenarios. I don't want anyone touching so that I can easily load that information. And it's in the state that I want it demoable so lock people out using it and, lock touchpoints in the code as well.

[00:44:33] Adam: all too often. The demo environment is the same as the QA and I needI need to test and see what happens when I make this change in.

[00:44:41] Carol: And then you just broke with any of the demo.

[00:44:44] Sales Mindset

[00:44:44] Tim: That being said, I don't think engineers really understand just how incredibly hard salespeople's job is. I mean, just to get people's attention is incredibly hard today. Everyone is bombarded with so much stuff all the time. That means absolutely nothing. And so if you can get someone who can get someone to come to the table, I mean, they've already done a huge amount of work to get them there.

[00:45:08] Tim: so just make sure. The stage is set and things are ready for, to present your best self there, because I've seen demos from companies that I know cannot deliver and their sales stuff looks so good and everything they say is so right. And I'm like, but I know for a fact they cannot do 80% of what they're saying. They just waiting for that, but they're going to get the sale. They're going to get the sale. That means they're going to get the money. And that means they're probably going to build it. And you know,it's like that just pisses me off.

[00:45:42] Ben: I can never be a salesperson. It seems way too. Peopley and confrontational is not the right word,

[00:45:48] Ben: but

[00:45:49] Adam: you don't.

[00:45:50] Ben: no, I do not people well, and I do not. I'm not someone who sells the value of something very well. It makes me very uncomfortable to sell value.

[00:45:59] Tim: I think, the value. I think you probably don't feel you, you don't want to oversell it,

[00:46:05] Ben: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:06] Tim: you don't want to present what were the, you're like, there's the option. You know, I I'm with you, Ben. I thought I could do sales and I did it for several years and I realized I cannot.

[00:46:16] Tim: And it's not because my biggest thing is when it comes to sales, you have to be the kind of person who can accept failure on a regular basis, because you're not going to win most of the time. You're going to fail most of the time. And that's okay if you're a salesperson, because it's those wins that you celebrate.

[00:46:32] Tim: But yeah, I could not, I got some failures and I'm like, Nope, I can't do this. It's just too hard. yeah. I w I just, I cannot shake it off. I couldn't let go of the failure and just move on to the next opportunity. And I mean, salespeople are like sharks, man. They're always moving forward.

[00:46:49] Tim: They're totally different breed from engineers. And I respect him for it, but I can not do.

[00:46:54] Ben: Totally tangential first. When Adam was talking about, Steve Ritler, his boss. I don't remember what he said, but there was something that, it occurred to me that between Steve's interview and, Tim's interview with Adam Lehman, both Steve and Adam talked about the fact that they started out as individual contributor/engineers, and then they both moved into management when they realized that they had.

[00:47:21] Ben: Make the kind of changes that they wanted to make and that they became engineers or they became managers when they wanted to become sort of like a Force multipliers.

[00:47:30] Carol: Yep. Yeah,

[00:47:31] Ben: don't know if a lot of people management are like that or if that's just a very coincidentally, we had these two interviews where both these people sort of had similar.

[00:47:39] Ben: Yeah. It was.

[00:47:41] Ben: very interesting. Cause I I think I had mentioned, oh my God, I'm blanking on his name.

[00:47:45] Adam: Teen Wolf,

[00:47:47] Ben: No, the, oh, he's,

[00:47:50] Adam: Savage.

[00:47:51] Ben: he's a ColdFusion guy. He does a lot of presentations. He always says outstanding.

[00:47:58] Carol: Totally Earhart.

[00:48:00] Ben: he did. Um,mark Asher,

[00:48:03] Ben: mark Esher every time.

[00:48:05] Carol: does say outstanding.

[00:48:06] Ben: Yeah. every time I never say stuff about like, oh, I can't get enough done or I don't have enough influence. He was, he always gets on my case about, that's why you got to become a manager, become a force multiplier.

[00:48:16] Ben: Like you, you can get everything you want done. If you have people under you getting it done. But

[00:48:21] Ben: I don't know. I

[00:48:22] Tim: Yeah. that's definitely a different mind. I mean, it's a mindset you either have, or you grow into and you just realized at some point you can only get so much done hands on keyboard as a contributor.

[00:48:34] Ben: So hard, I'm addicted to programming.

[00:48:36] Adam: All right. Well, that's going to do it for us this evening. this episode of Working Code was brought to you by changing your coworkers keyboard language while they're in the middle of the day. listeners like you and also audible trial.com/working code pod. Get yourself a free trial.

[00:48:53] Patreon

[00:48:53] Adam: If you like what we're doing here, you might want to consider supporting us on Patreon at patreon.com/WorkingCodePod.

[00:48:58] Adam: you can support us for as little as $4 a month, and all patrons get access to our after show and early access to new episodes. As soon as the. We're going to send out a huge thank you to our top patrons, Monte and Peter. Thank you guys so much for your continued support

[00:49:14] Thanks For Listening!

[00:49:14] Adam: and for everybody else, that's just here to listen.

[00:49:16] Adam: That's awesome. And cool with us. We appreciate ya. and if you were interested in sending us some good vibes, you could do that by leaving us review and a rating on apple podcasts and telling your friends and your coworkers about. please send us your questions and show topics on Twitter or Instagram @WorkingCodePod.

[00:49:34] Adam: Or you can record a voice memo on your phone or on your computer, and you can email it to us@workingcodepodatgmail.com. and, you can also join our Discord and chat with us there, chat with the other listeners there. It's a great, great place to hang out.

[00:49:47] Tim: Talk about, talk about

[00:49:48] Tim: of code.

[00:49:49] Adam: yeah, so that's it we'll catch you next week.

[00:49:52] Adam: And until.

[00:49:53] Tim: Remember guys and gals your heart matters, even if you mess with Ben during a demo.

next episode: 056: Best Of 2021

prev episode: 054: We're So Quacked!