132: Virtual Reality

After watching the release event for Apple's new Vision Pro headset, Tim wants to talk to us about both Virtual Reality (VR) and Augmented Reality (AR); and, get our general take on where this all fits into the future of computing. We each have a different level of exposure to this kind of technology. But, certainly none of us is using any type of headset in an ongoing way.

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With audio editing and engineering by ZCross Media.


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[00:00:00] Tim: So it knows where you're looking. and you can like, make things bigger as most you can, like do, like Adam was saying, you could be looking at your own wall and like see if people are like around you or you know, your dogs are going by or whatever. You can see your area, you can see like a giant screen on your wall and watch a movie or YouTube or an Excel spreadsheet or a Word doc, things like that.

[00:00:20] Adam: Can't wait to get some, some big screen IMAX spreadsheets going,

[00:00:43] Intro

[00:00:43] Adam: Okay, here we go. It is show number 132. And guess what? We got the whole crew back on. That's gonna be

[00:00:51] Carol: it's a party.

[00:00:53] Adam: welcome back Carolyn, Tim. Glad to have

[00:00:55] Carol: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:00:56] Adam: So on today's episode, we are going to do a couple things. We're gonna play a quick game that I've been dying to play with you guys ever since I thought

[00:01:03] Carol: Heck yeah.

[00:01:04] Adam: We are going to do a quick recap of where we are in the book club and we're gonna talk about virtual reality. so today was the day that Apple released their, what is it called? vision Pro. or announced it, I guess, and I'm not sure if it, I, I doubt it's available. anyway, we, we just, yeah, we just figured it would be a good time to talk about, you know, VR and AR as it pertains to a life in code.

[00:01:25] Adam: So that's what we're gonna do today. But first, as usual, we'll start with our triumphs and fails. And Carol and Tim, since you guys are newly back on the show, why don't we have you guys start? So, Carol, why don't you go first?

[00:01:37] Carol's Triumph

[00:01:37] Carol: Yeah, I'll kick us off. I'm gonna go with Big Triumph. Like Adam said, I'm back and that's a great thing. but while it was out, we had some really good things happen for our family. So my youngest son graduated high school and our family was mostly able to be able to come. we were given, we were allowed to bring 12 people and we used all of our tickets.

[00:01:57] Carol: So we had 12 family plus we had more people come into town just for the party after. So we were just happy to have a nine Covid. Lockdown situation cuz when James graduated the oldest one, we were only allowed four people. And they did that based off of the assumption that loss of parents are divorced.

[00:02:14] Carol: So you get four tickets for two moms and two dads and that's all you're getting, right? So whatever your family situation is, that, that's all you're gonna get. So to have 12 was nice. Cause we have, you know, three sets of grandparents that need to come in and we have aunts and uncles. So it was really, really good. And then, my husband promoted to captain in the Army, so that was a big win as well.

[00:02:36] Tim: Oh,

[00:02:36] Carol: proud of him. Yep.

[00:02:38] Tim: oh. Captain, my captain.

[00:02:39] Carol: Oh, captain, my captain I up in morning. Well, good morning. Captain Weer, and he just, And then, he had another year around the sun, had his birthday during all this time, and we also have almost everything packed and everything gets moved this upcoming week.

[00:02:56] Carol: So yeah, there's been no sleep. So, and if you can tell I'm congested, it's because we've all had covid, you know, so it's been a fun break for us, you know, being sick and doing all this stuff, but getting good, just still some congestion going on. Yeah.

[00:03:10] Adam: apparently you weren't busy enough.

[00:03:12] Carol: Wasn't busy enough. My body said it was gonna make me rest whether I wanted to or not. Yeah, happy to be back. Lots of wins, lots of great things going on for my family. So, yep, that's me. What about you, Tim?

[00:03:25] Tim's Failure

[00:03:25] Tim: Well, I'm going with a fail. yeah, well I may had, I had my first dance with Covid, so, so, you know, three, three and a half years in, managed to avoid it. they finally, Like May 11th, I think they announced it was no longer a pandemic. And lots of things, you know, governmental things shut off that you can't get free tests anymore, things like that.

[00:03:45] Tim: So that's of course when I decided to get it. yeah, my, my in-laws came in from Ireland a couple weeks ago and they, they, I guess they caught it like right before they left. And so they got over here and they tested positive and they tried to quarantine on the other side of the house. But my wife and I wound up both getting it.

[00:04:01] Tim: So fortunately the kids avoided it. Yeah, so the four of us were pretty miserable there for a while, but, uh, took, took some plo, the antiviral, which apparently they don't have in Europe. I guess maybe they didn't, they didn't approve it over there. They, no one's ever heard of it over there. But, it knocked it out pretty quick.

[00:04:18] Tim: I think I was sick maybe four and a half, five days. So,

[00:04:21] Ben: Nice.

[00:04:21] Tim: yeah. But now everyone, everyone's back. Everyone's tested negative, everyone's feeling fair about better. So

[00:04:27] Adam: That's good.

[00:04:28] Carol: So it was a. It was the same way in our house. Peyton didn't get it and Kayla didn't get it even though they were around us. And I was wondering if it's because they have so much exposure to it around school and around big around people that they actually have built up a little bit of an immunity to it.

[00:04:42] Carol: And I'm never around humans unless it's one of them being in my house. So I'm gonna catch everything.

[00:04:49] Tim: Yeah, I was wondering, saying, yeah, same thing with the kids, cuz you know, they've been going to school all year and they were constantly exposed to something. Right. But yeah, I don't know how that works. Maybe it's just cuz they're young. I mean, my, my, my father-in-law is 82, so unfortunately he didn't get very bad symptoms, so.

[00:05:06] Carol: Well, I'm glad y'all are doing good.

[00:05:08] Tim: Yeah. Thanks.

[00:05:10] Adam: I am terrified of getting covid. So there's one, I think I might have mentioned this on the show previously. There's a science communicator on YouTube that I like. I watch her videos, and. She does a lot of stuff about space and stuff. That's why. And physics, her, her channel's called Physics Girl, if you wanna check her out.

[00:05:25] Adam: she got long covid and it has like knocked her on her butt. She spends her entire life now in a dark room with an eye mask on. She had this really long hair. She's like, I think she was born on Hawaii. She's a surfer. She's got really long hair and or had really long hair, but because she was living in bed, it became impossible to take care of it.

[00:05:46] Adam: And so she cut it off. Like that's how, that's how bad it's been for her. her, her husband is like making smoothies of food for her and like nobody can go in and talk to her cuz it's just too much for her. Yeah. Like, oh man, I can,

[00:05:58] Ben: Sounds awful.

[00:05:59] Adam: it, it does sound so terrible. I feel so bad for her, but just like, you know, I'm sure that's, you know, kind of the worst case scenario.

[00:06:06] Adam: I know she got it at least once, if not twice, that I can remember her talking about on her YouTube channel. But man, like. Everybody's like, oh, that's not that big of a deal. We got the vaccine, we got the, the treatment stuff. And I'm just like, yeah, but that's not a guarantee that you're not gonna get the worst case thing,

[00:06:21] Carol: Yeah, it's not that big of agility. More for a big chunk of people, but people still have really bad reactions to it,

[00:06:29] Adam: Yep,

[00:06:29] Carol: there's lots of things we still don't know about the outcome of having it, you know?

[00:06:33] Adam: yep. Yeah. And so like whenever I have to fly now or anything like that where I, I know I'm gonna be cooped up with sharing air with a bunch of people. I'm like, Nope, gimme my N 95 s and. you know, take all the precautions.

[00:06:46] Tim: Yeah. One precaution I didn't realize you could do you. You can. I just did it like a teledoc and

[00:06:52] Adam: a condom over your head.

[00:06:53] Tim: exactly, uh, yes. Safe, safe, safe coughing. No, you, you can actually ask for it even if you're not sick. So you can say, Hey, look, I, I'm traveling, you know, I'm getting on a plane. I, I, I'm, you know, I'm afraid I might get exposed to it.

[00:07:06] Tim: Can you prescribe it? And they'll, they'll prescribe it to you?

[00:07:08] Adam: What? Like the pax Livid.

[00:07:10] Tim: the blovid, yeah. They'll prescribe it to you so you know, if you don't need it, you don't need it. But if you, if you do, it's, you know, particularly if you're like somewhere else. You know, that's really helpful, so

[00:07:21] Carol: I didn't know that. Good to know. May grab it when we make the big move.

[00:07:26] Tim: for sure.

[00:07:28] Tim: Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's a fail. It's a fail, but, you know, I'm back to work now, so I'm happy, happy getting some work done. Adam, how about you?

[00:07:37] Adam: Oh, I, yeah. Thank you.

[00:07:39] Adam's Triumph

[00:07:39] Adam: I am going to go with a triumph. And that is that we are PCI compliant.

[00:07:44] Ben: What.

[00:07:45] Adam: been P compliant, but now it's been officially

[00:07:47] Tim: You've got the, you, you got the certificate?

[00:07:50] Carol: Congrats.

[00:07:51] Adam: got our stamp. So that's, that's the, the smaller of the two beasts slain and now continues the effort to, to kill the, the larger of the two.

[00:08:01] Adam: With SOC two, I'm back on, back on my SOC two ish again. But, yeah, so, you know, one down, one to go. Oh, and then the other thing that's great, well, not for the, the best of reasons, but I'm excited anyway, is I wrote some code today. Woohoo.

[00:08:17] Ben: Nice.

[00:08:19] Adam: Oh, when, when that's, an exciting statement, then that's how far I've come.

[00:08:24] Adam: yeah, I, I wish it was under better, better circumstances, but I did write some code today. The, the code that I wrote was some bug fixes for a feature that I'd put out like, I don't know, maybe three or four months ago because of, it's like, it was like a yak shaving thing, right? Like there's this problem in production and it was caused by this, and that was caused by this, and that was caused by this.

[00:08:41] Adam: So I'm like fixing the thing at the bottom of that stack that would kind of, hopefully cascade all the way up. But

[00:08:48] Ben: Very

[00:08:48] Adam: yep. So, you know, easy to describe but, feels triumphant, so I'm gonna go with it. So I guess easy for me, Ben, that leaves, just leaves you buddy.

[00:08:58] Ben's Double Triumph

[00:08:58] Ben: I'm also gonna go with Triumph. I'm gonna go with a double triumph. I've had some, some good things come in my way recently. first Triumph is that, I have figured out, so I've been working on this Dig Deep Fitness little side project. And I now have it so that you can log in or sign up using a magic link.

[00:09:16] Ben: A magic link As a, a Passwordless login, you just provide an email address. I shoot you over an email with a, you know, fun cryptographically signed stuff in the url, and then you're magically logged in. so that's pretty exciting. I'm super excited about that. Once you log in, there's absolutely nothing to do yet.

[00:09:34] Ben: So it's kind of a bummer for anyone who tries it. But, um, You know, I feel like it's all, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all, it's all gonna be, uh, easier going forward at this point. So that's one triumph. The other triumph is, I'm pretty sure I talked about this on the show last time or two times ago. I've been playing around this idea of doing an office hours at work with the customers, just putting a, a zoom link essentially in a.

[00:09:59] Ben: Quasi public place where any customer, well not any customer, but any, a lot of our customers could see. And then, I had my first office hours last Friday from 12 Eastern to two Eastern. And, two people showed up. And that doesn't sound like a lot, but I was definitely expecting no one to show up.

[00:10:18] Carol: That's a win.

[00:10:19] Adam: rad.

[00:10:19] Ben: it, it was a super win.

[00:10:20] Ben: Two people showed up and each of them, I had like a 20 minute in-depth conversation about how they use the product and the kind of stuff. They

[00:10:28] Tim: Congratulations. You're a camgirl now.

[00:10:32] Ben: That's, yeah. So, you know, I'm gonna continue to put my, my only fan's, link right there on the site, so, they can, but no, it was, yeah, like, I'll tell you, I, I just felt so alive afterwards.

[00:10:43] Ben: I can't tell you. I, I, I have felt disconnected from the customers, but I don't think I quite realized how disconnected I felt until I actually connected with them. And it was like a whole new world, just one. You hear things from the customer that you don't hear from your own company, you know? So again, yada, yada, yada.

[00:11:05] Ben: I work on the Legacy platform. If you talk to anyone at the company, they would tell you that the legacy platform is garbage. No one likes it. When, like when's the soon as they can get rid of it. The two people I talked to obviously are from the Legacy platform and they were both like, yeah, we love the product and we're continuing to use the product and we're coming to office hours because we're excited about making the product better.

[00:11:26] Ben: And I'm like, wow, I don't get that from anyone in the company. So

[00:11:29] Carol: Aww.

[00:11:30] Ben: super refreshing to hear it from people who are actually on the ground using the product. So

[00:11:35] Carol: Makes your heart happy.

[00:11:37] Ben: So happy,

[00:11:38] Carol: Uhhuh. Yeah.

[00:11:40] Ben: And I didn't get in trouble for doing it. Yeah, exactly. So that's pretty, pretty nice. so I'm, I'm gonna continue to do it. I don't know, I don't know what the cadence is. In a perfect world, I think I would do it every Friday because I can just sit there and do my work while I'm in the Zoom if no one shows up. So it's not like, not like I'm losing time, but. If I could talk to one person a week, I would count that as a pretty amazing win, honestly.

[00:12:14] Adam: Now that you mention it, like the idea of office hours is neat, but I wonder if it would be better to have scheduled one-on-one time so that people don't come and show up and, and get frustrated that there's three people that you talk to and you don't have time to get to them. So I wonder if you could do something like where people can schedule to get on your calendar instead.

[00:12:33] Ben: So, That's, that's a So great minds think alike. Obviously I have my Jira Epic, which is my office hours Epic, where I've been building this and making tweaks to it. And I have a ticket that I put in the other day and it was titled like, would it be Crazy to offer scheduled one-on-ones? And, and I think I might wanna do that cuz right now you, you jump in, it says, you know, there's a, on Friday at 12 Eastern, there'll be this Zoom link.

[00:12:59] Ben: And then I feel like maybe underneath, like, or if you'd rather talk about something privately, click here to schedule a one-on-one. And I, you know, again, it's like there's nothing set in stone, right? I could try it and if I get too many requests, which like, as they say, a good problem to have, but like if that's just not a volume I can handle, then I can always remove it and, it just didn't work out.

[00:13:20] Ben: So I, I do think I want to try that. I'd be curious to see how many people would, would want to talk privately, but not publicly.

[00:13:28] Adam: Sure. Yeah. I mean, if you're looking for tool ideas, right, so that you don't have to spend a whole lot of time building something that may get and ultimately thrown away, cal.com, c a l.com, would be something that I would recommend. You've probably heard of Calendly, the service.

[00:13:44] Carol: that's what I use.

[00:13:46] Adam: so cal.com is basically Calendly, but it's free up to a certain level.

[00:13:52] Tim: Do you guys use teams? Ben,

[00:13:54] Ben: Microsoft teams.

[00:13:55] Tim: yeah.

[00:13:56] Ben: No, we, we use, zoom.

[00:13:58] Tim: zoom. Okay, I'll just go because I just noticed Microsoft Teams added a thing we could actually do. Sort of like that calendar picking, I forget what they call it. It seemed like it worked pretty good. I haven't played around with it yet, but, but anyway, if you use Zoom, nevermind.

[00:14:13] Ben: I, I almost feel, I mean, you know, sometimes I fear that I lean too heavily into the. MVP mindset, but I, I almost feel like mvp. I could just have people email me like,

[00:14:27] Adam: Yeah.

[00:14:28] Ben: email. I mean, like,

[00:14:30] Carol: I'll send you back a couple options and let me know if they work.

[00:14:33] Tim: There you go.

[00:14:34] Carol: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:34] Ben: like that, that could be, that could work. I don't

[00:14:37] Tim: It might be, it might be a problem you don't worry about until you start getting. More than two. If you start getting five or six people and they don't really get to talk or like one person hogs it.

[00:14:46] Ben: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, the, the two people that I talked to showed up at completely separate times, so I was basically having one-on-ones, which was fantastic. Although, so one very validating point is when the second person jumped in, They were like, oh, wow. I, I didn't expect to be the only one. He actually had expected multiple people to be in the call.

[00:15:08] Ben: So that at least made me feel a little bit more, okay with the idea that, I've always had a little anxiety that, that people can be like ambushed by the idea that someone could, else could jump in at any moment.

[00:15:19] Adam: Right.

[00:15:20] Tim: besides validation, did you actually learn anything from their, what they brought to you?

[00:15:26] Ben: I mean, so Mo most of the discussion was about feature requests that people have, but one thing that was super fascinating was one of the guys, they were a long time Sketch, sketch company. Sketch is a design product. and they were using all, they were using Sketch to make their prototypes. They have since moved to a.

[00:15:45] Ben: A product called Figma. and Figma is very much a direct competitor of ours, so it was very interesting.

[00:15:51] Tim: It just got by by Adobe. Not too long ago.

[00:15:53] Ben: or they're like pending I think. I don't know if it's been finalized, but Yes. it was very interesting to hear a customer say they have moved to Figma but do not have intentions of moving off of our product.

[00:16:05] Ben: So there are clearly things in our product that are a value add, even on top of what a competitor is offering. So that's, That was pretty exciting I think.

[00:16:14] Carol: It's cool to know that, that they pick up the other product and they still use yours because you do something that, that the new product doesn't, you know, that Figma doesn't do and they still have a part of it that they need.

[00:16:25] Ben: Yeah, so I, I'm, I'm just excited. I'm super excited to actually be talking to real live humans and doing like some, some light peeing again. That's been great.

[00:16:36] Carol: And there's something to be said too about the user that joined and wasn't expecting to be, you know, the only user joining this call, because that makes me think he loves it enough to think that other people still love the product. So that's even like a bigger win. Yeah. Like, oh, like I love this so much.

[00:16:55] Carol: Other people have to love this. So, yeah.

[00:16:58] Adam: For real.

[00:16:59] Ben: Love it. So that's me. Double win.

[00:17:02] Tim: I would say if you want to. If you're worried about management, like why are you getting feedback for new features? You could say, listen, whenever they say a feature that's already in the enterprise system, I, I pour, you know, you tell, I point them towards that, right? So I like, oh, did you realize we already did this?

[00:17:18] Tim: We already did. So, you know, this is more like an outreach to help people like understand the differences between the two products. But I got my skunk quirks going on too. Don't tell 'em that

[00:17:27] Ben: There you go. There you go. I love it.

[00:17:29] NATO Phonetic Alphabet Quiz

[00:17:29] Adam: All right, cool. Well, that's try and fail. So now is the part where I'm going to surprise you guys with a game. I came up with this idea a while back and I've been dying to play it, but I wanted to wait until all four of us were on here. So roll the, the, the game show music or whatever. Cuz here it comes.

[00:17:44] Adam: Right? Okay, so here's the, I wanna start with this cuz it, it would be pretty easy to cheat at this game. So I'm just gonna, we're gonna go honor system. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you what's happening, but you have to promise you're not gonna Google it. And you also have to promise that if you happen to already know the answers, because this is pretty common knowledge stuff, you're just gonna recuse yourself and not, not, not spoil the game for the rest of us to have fun.

[00:18:05] Adam: Okay?

[00:18:05] Carol: Okay.

[00:18:06] Adam: So, as people, as technology people who occasionally have to talk to somebody on the phone and like, spell things out, like spell your name on the phone or whatever, it can be difficult to communicate with people. And so there's a, there's a tool for that problem. It's called the NATO phonetic alphabet.

[00:18:22] Adam: Have you heard of

[00:18:24] Carol: No, wait, wait, wait.

[00:18:27] Tim: I would imagine.

[00:18:28] Carol: Bravo, Charlie?

[00:18:30] Adam: stop. Yes, that's it.

[00:18:31] Tim: I was like, an Army wife should know this.

[00:18:35] Carol: I'm like, nato, I know what NATO means. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it.

[00:18:38] Adam: Yes. So that's it. Okay. So Carol, if you know all the answers, you're just gonna have to recuse yourself and, and giggle at the rest of these guys. But,

[00:18:46] Tim: So I will say I know a fair amount of that, but I don't know all of them, so I could still get it wrong.

[00:18:53] Adam: And Ben.

[00:18:54] Ben: I mean, I know a, a couple,

[00:18:56] Adam: Okay.

[00:18:56] Tim: I know 'em. I've known 'em from movies, so.

[00:19:00] Adam: There's, there's some obscure ones in

[00:19:01] Carol: There are mm-hmm.

[00:19:03] Adam: hard to get ones. So the, the fun part here is gonna be when you don't know the answer and you're trying to come up with like, what could it be? We could, could have some fun with that. Right.

[00:19:11] Carol: Yeah, there's a few. I don't know. So yeah.

[00:19:14] Adam: Okay. So, I mean, this is Lucy goosey. We'll just start at the top and work our way through, right? Like, so, Carol already gained a giveaway. The first, the first three. If you guys were listening

[00:19:23] Carol: Sorry.

[00:19:24] Adam: that's okay. You didn't know. So A, obviously is Ben. Tim?

[00:19:30] Ben: Alpha.

[00:19:30] Tim: Alpha

[00:19:31] Carol: Yeah.

[00:19:32] Adam: Alpha

[00:19:32] Carol: Ding, ding, ding,

[00:19:34] Tim: Bravo,

[00:19:35] Adam: yep. C, K. D.

[00:19:40] Carol: Ben.

[00:19:41] Adam: Ben Men. Yeah.

[00:19:42] Ben: Delta. I think

[00:19:43] Adam: Correct. Yeah. This is gonna be really boring if you guys get 'em all right.

[00:19:48] Ben: I, I don't know, e.

[00:19:49] Carol: Good, good, good. Then make a guess if Tim doesn't know either.

[00:19:52] Tim: Elephant.

[00:19:53] Adam: So, I'll give you a little hint too. Is, is that the, the purpose of these words, for each letter is to make it clear when you're speaking like over the radio, right? So recognizable.

[00:20:05] Tim: So it's not elephant.

[00:20:07] Carol: No. Nope.

[00:20:10] Adam: Ben, did you have a

[00:20:11] Ben: I, I think it's Echo

[00:20:12] Carol: You got it. Yep.

[00:20:16] Ben: Abc F

[00:20:17] Carol: I don't know f, but I have a guess.

[00:20:21] Tim: Foxtrot, isn't it? Foxtrot.

[00:20:23] Adam: It is foxtrot.

[00:20:24] Ben: There's a movie called Fox. What was one? Tina Faye, where she was a war

[00:20:28] Adam: don't, I can't, that's gonna give away two of the other answers.

[00:20:30] Ben: Oh, is it? Sorry, I only re I can't, I don't remember what it is. I just remember it had foxtrot in it.

[00:20:37] Adam: Yeah. Okay.

[00:20:39] Tim: bad words you can spell with that Foxtrot. That's with all the Air Force guys are always using those.

[00:20:44] Adam: yes,

[00:20:45] Ben: Abc, F G

[00:20:47] Tim: Gee,

[00:20:48] Ben: get Gangnam style.

[00:20:51] Carol: You got it Ben. Great job.

[00:20:54] Tim: yeah, that cur Curry is part of NATO Gamma.

[00:21:00] Carol: Nope.

[00:21:01] Adam: That's a good guess, but no.

[00:21:03] Tim: Gang Green,

[00:21:04] Ben: Gary

[00:21:06] Adam: Gary, it's golf.

[00:21:07] Carol: Golf, it's sport. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:10] Ben: So just quick, quick

[00:21:12] Adam: go ahead.

[00:21:12] Carol: H

[00:21:13] Ben: when, when, when you all need to know what the letter after G is, do you count up from a, cuz that's what I do.

[00:21:19] Adam: I, I don't always,

[00:21:21] Tim: song in my head.

[00:21:22] Carol: i I sing my head. I'm like cd, g h. Yeah.

[00:21:26] Adam: I start somewhere recognizable in the middle. Right? So like if I'm trying to remember what comes after G I'll be like d, e, F, G, H.

[00:21:33] Ben: Yeah. I either

[00:21:34] Tim: it's one group. Go ahead.

[00:21:36] Ben: I was gonna say, I either start from A or from M.

[00:21:39] Carol: Oh

[00:21:39] Tim: Yeah. L n O is sort of like a grouping. Everything after that and then everything before L N O P.

[00:21:44] Carol: Yep.

[00:21:45] Adam: All right.

[00:21:46] Ben: have we had?

[00:21:47] Adam: H. H,

[00:21:49] Ben: Halo?

[00:21:50] Adam: that's a good guess, but no.

[00:21:52] Ben: Hector

[00:21:54] Adam: Also a good guest, but no

[00:21:56] Tim: Horus

[00:21:57] Adam: Horace. Nope.

[00:21:59] Ben: Carol. Carol must know. She looks

[00:22:01] Adam: Carol must know cuz she's not

[00:22:03] Carol: H is, I thought it was Hilo like the helicopter.

[00:22:09] Ben: Hulu. Did we do Hulu

[00:22:11] Adam: Hulu. No, it's it's hotel,

[00:22:15] Carol: Hotel. Dammit. Uh, that's also what I knew another one for. Okay.

[00:22:21] Adam: if you're not happy with hotel, there's gonna be some ones that you're really not gonna like.

[00:22:25] Carol: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:26] Adam: All right. So after h's, I,

[00:22:28] Tim: that's E blue.

[00:22:31] Adam: no,

[00:22:32] Tim: No,

[00:22:34] Carol: Actually, I don't know. I

[00:22:36] Ben: Nothing. I got

[00:22:37] Adam: nothing.

[00:22:38] Carol: India, indigo,

[00:22:40] Ben: that begin with I,

[00:22:41] Adam: It is India.

[00:22:42] Carol: Yeah. I have to like say, um, alpha Bravo, Charlie, go. Yeah.

[00:22:47] Adam: Yeah. So, yeah. Next up is

[00:22:50] Tim: So the whole, so the whole game is just going through the alphabet. Okay.

[00:22:53] Adam: That's it.

[00:22:55] Carol: Yes. It has to be Java. There you go.

[00:22:58] Tim: Java.

[00:22:58] Adam: appropriate.

[00:23:00] Tim: 2.1.

[00:23:03] Carol: javelin.

[00:23:06] Adam: Nope, it's not javelin. Not jump.

[00:23:08] Tim: Jakarta

[00:23:10] Adam: No,

[00:23:11] Tim: Jay Stars.

[00:23:13] Adam: it

[00:23:13] Carol: That is a plane.

[00:23:14] Tim: Yeah, it is.

[00:23:16] Adam: Juliet.

[00:23:17] Carol: Juliet. Yeah. Hotel Juliet.

[00:23:20] Tim: that get that. I think that tips me off to another one that will be

[00:23:23] Carol: Uhhuh. Yes.

[00:23:24] Tim: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:25] Adam: Well, let's give it away. Spoiler

[00:23:26] Carol: I'm sorry.

[00:23:27] Tim: Sorry, sorry. I don't, I didn't know that one for sure, but I think it did help me.

[00:23:31] Adam: All right, so the next up is K.

[00:23:33] Ben: K Kappa. That's just the Greek literary, that's not the thing.

[00:23:36] Adam: That would be a good guess. But no,

[00:23:38] Tim: y Jelly.

[00:23:39] Ben: Kaleidoscope.

[00:23:41] Adam: I think Tim has figured out the spirit of the game here. Let's have fun with this

[00:23:48] Tim: I mean, I'm thinking what military guys are all

[00:23:50] Carol: I know

[00:23:51] Tim: Hotels, golf. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:56] Adam: Shakespeare.

[00:23:57] Tim: Doing the foxtrot with Juliet.

[00:23:59] Adam: Sounds like nobody knows. Kay.

[00:24:01] Ben: Kong.

[00:24:01] Carol: Tight

[00:24:03] Adam: Gone. It's, it's kilo.

[00:24:07] Carol: kilo.

[00:24:08] Tim: Kilo. Ah-huh. Okay. Yeah. Military guys, they, they want a kilo. Okay. Gotcha.

[00:24:14] Adam: All right, next up is Al.

[00:24:15] Ben: Lima. Lima.

[00:24:17] Tim: Lama,

[00:24:18] Carol: Lima, Lima.

[00:24:19] Tim: oh, Lima, I like the country. Okay.

[00:24:21] Adam: Yeah. I'm, I'm surprised you guys have got that one.

[00:24:23] Ben: Like

[00:24:24] Tim: Or like the bean.

[00:24:26] Carol: Oh yeah. I didn't know Lima was a,

[00:24:30] Tim: Lema, Peru. That's a city.

[00:24:31] Carol: oh.

[00:24:31] Tim: Peru.

[00:24:32] Adam: So M

[00:24:34] Ben: mark.

[00:24:36] Tim: Mommy

[00:24:37] Adam: Nancy,

[00:24:41] Ben: Mike,

[00:24:42] Adam: Yeah, that is what I said. I don't know how many Archer fans we have in the audience.

[00:24:47] Tim: phrasing.

[00:24:49] Adam: Yeah. There you go. So, no, m is Mike.

[00:24:53] Tim: I, I knew that

[00:24:54] Ben: that's, so,

[00:24:56] Ben: oh my God. I'm blanking on his name all of a sudden. Mark. Mark Drew. Mark Drew. His company is called Charlie. Mike Delta.

[00:25:03] Carol: Oh.

[00:25:04] Adam: That is accurate. Okay, so next up is n

[00:25:09] Ben: Nancy

[00:25:11] Adam: no.

[00:25:12] Tim: I was gonna say Nancy, too.

[00:25:14] Carol: Nope.

[00:25:15] Ben: Niles,

[00:25:17] Adam: You must know it, Carol, the way that you're Yeah,

[00:25:20] Ben: what is it?

[00:25:21] Carol: November.

[00:25:22] Tim: November.

[00:25:24] Carol: I'm congested. Sorry. Hopefully they're coming out enough. Clear enough.

[00:25:27] Adam: well that's the whole point, right? So that if, if things are garbled or hard to

[00:25:31] Carol: know, I know the next several. Yeah.

[00:25:34] Ben: is the idea that, that these words can't be easily confused with any other

[00:25:38] Tim: Yeah.

[00:25:39] Carol: Yeah. Yep.

[00:25:40] Ben: Gotcha.

[00:25:42] Carol: And even if you kind of don't hear it, you can make it out like, like it's the syllable counts too, so,

[00:25:48] Adam: Yeah.

[00:25:49] Ben: So M N O O.

[00:25:51] Carol: Yeah. Oh, oh, is next. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:53] Tim: Oh,

[00:25:54] Ben: Oto

[00:25:55] Adam: What did you say, Ben?

[00:25:57] Ben: Auto.

[00:25:58] Carol: Wouldn't that be an A?

[00:26:00] Tim: That would sound like an A.

[00:26:01] Ben: Mm

[00:26:01] Adam: if like Ottoman,

[00:26:03] Ben: o Ryan

[00:26:04] Carol: oh yeah.

[00:26:05] Adam: no, no. What about, uh,think of Sesame Street

[00:26:11] Ben: Oreo,

[00:26:11] Tim: Oscar

[00:26:12] Carol: Oscar. Mm-hmm. Good job, Tim.

[00:26:15] Tim: Oscar the gra. I know my Sesame Street.

[00:26:18] Adam: It's a crucial life skill.

[00:26:20] Tim: It is

[00:26:21] Adam: All right, so p

[00:26:23] Ben: Wait, what was O

[00:26:25] Adam: Oscar.

[00:26:26] Ben: uh,

[00:26:27] Carol: The word I like saying, oh, hello, can I help you? Sorry, did y'all not hear a phone ring?

[00:26:35] Ben: I heard a phone ring.

[00:26:36] Tim: Yeah, my,

[00:26:39] Adam: What's your favorite color?

[00:26:43] Tim: how about penumbra? Is it Penumbra?

[00:26:46] Adam: It is not Penumbra

[00:26:47] Tim: Oh,

[00:26:48] Ben: Paco

[00:26:49] Carol: You're very close, Ben.

[00:26:52] Adam: What'd you say?

[00:26:53] Ben: Teco

[00:26:54] Carol: he said Pa. It's close, kind. Close.

[00:26:58] Ben: Pico.

[00:26:59] Carol: No, it's Papa,

[00:27:02] Ben: Really

[00:27:02] Carol: Yes. Papa. Papa. Yeah. It's papa.

[00:27:05] Adam: they, they typically pronounce it like P O P P A, Papa.

[00:27:09] Carol: it's papa. Yeah.

[00:27:10] Adam: Now here comes a maybe, possibly tricky one here. Q

[00:27:15] Ben: queen

[00:27:16] Adam: Oh, that's a really good guess, but no.

[00:27:18] Carol: no.

[00:27:19] Tim: Query.

[00:27:21] Adam: Again, very on brand, but

[00:27:23] Tim: Yeah. Brand.

[00:27:24] Carol: yeah. We should make our own tech. We should make our own tech version of the alphabet.

[00:27:30] Adam: The, the tech nerd phonetic

[00:27:31] Carol: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:33] Adam: M as in Nancy.

[00:27:34] Carol: It's a location.

[00:27:36] Tim: Quantico,

[00:27:37] Carol: Close, but actually not close. Wait, would you say Ben?

[00:27:41] Ben: Quebec,

[00:27:42] Carol: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Adam: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Tim: uh, It's

[00:27:44] Carol: It's Quebec. Yeah. Papa Quebec. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:48] Adam: All right. So r

[00:27:50] Carol: Tim. Tim.

[00:27:51] Tim: Roger.

[00:27:53] Carol: Tim.

[00:27:54] Tim: Oh, Romeo.

[00:27:55] Ben: Romeo

[00:27:56] Carol: already had it right once.

[00:27:59] Tim: But, but I'm torn between being right and being entertaining. So

[00:28:02] Carol: Fair.

[00:28:03] Adam: that's fine. That's the, that's the game. All right, so next up is s.

[00:28:07] Ben: I actually don't know. S Steel.

[00:28:11] Adam: No,

[00:28:12] Carol: Sarah

[00:28:14] Adam: no,

[00:28:15] Tim: Scorpion

[00:28:17] Ben: Sex Genium.

[00:28:20] Adam: no.

[00:28:21] Carol: Sagittarius

[00:28:22] Tim: Sausage.

[00:28:24] Carol: Sausage.

[00:28:25] Adam: I can just imagine listening to the radio and hearing all of you guys like saying these words.

[00:28:30] Carol: Well, so sometimes whenever I am making a call to someone, they're having me spell it. I'm like, S is for Steve. I don't know, like, cuz I can't think of some of the letters.

[00:28:39] Adam: Yeah. And I hate when I get stuck and they're like, spell your last name. And I'm like, okay. T as in Tu. Like,

[00:28:49] Carol: You as in, you should understand my spelling.

[00:28:51] Ben: Sanctuary.

[00:28:53] Adam: Nope, not sanctuary. That's another good guess. All right, let's, let's keep it from rolling here. So s as Sierra.

[00:28:58] Carol: Tiara. Ah,

[00:29:00] Tim: let's see. Treasure, the Sierra Madre.

[00:29:04] Adam: So this was one that you should have remembered from earlier comments. T.

[00:29:08] Carol: mm-hmm.

[00:29:10] Tim: Tango.

[00:29:10] Carol: Tango,

[00:29:11] Ben: Anyone ever see the movie Tango In Cash

[00:29:14] Adam: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Ben: early, uh, Sylvester Sloan and, oh man. Who's the, guy? Kurt Russell.

[00:29:23] Adam: Hmm.

[00:29:24] Ben: That was a good movie.

[00:29:26] Tim: All right. This one is one that I almost never remembered until we got a plane with this letter in its tail number, and now we refer to it as this word all the time. So, t u. So we're at you.

[00:29:37] Adam: we're at you. Yeah.

[00:29:39] Ben: Umbra,

[00:29:41] Tim: Uvula

[00:29:43] Adam: umbrella. No, it's not

[00:29:44] Tim: umbrella,

[00:29:46] Carol: Nope.

[00:29:46] Tim: Umbridge.

[00:29:48] Ben: Utah.

[00:29:50] Adam: Oh, that would be really good.

[00:29:51] Carol: That would be a

[00:29:51] Tim: That would be Utah.

[00:29:53] Carol: Utah. Utah. Yeah. That would be easy

[00:29:54] Adam: a lot of our ideas are very like, you know, America centric, right?

[00:30:00] Carol: That's true. Yeah.

[00:30:02] Tim: university of Georgia.

[00:30:06] Adam: no U is uniform.

[00:30:08] Tim: Uniform. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

[00:30:12] Adam: That leaves V

[00:30:13] Carol: Be close. Victor, miss Victor? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:20] Adam: And then w.

[00:30:21] Tim: Whataburger.

[00:30:26] Ben: Waco

[00:30:29] Adam: They're not all locations

[00:30:31] Tim: Uh,Washington.

[00:30:36] Adam: working code

[00:30:37] Tim: There you go. It should be

[00:30:38] Carol: Yeah.

[00:30:39] Tim: this. Follow petition.org

[00:30:42] Adam: change.org. Yeah. Now is really, nobody has w.

[00:30:46] Carol: Yeah I do, but only cuz I know it.

[00:30:47] Adam: Yeah. Well, and

[00:30:48] Tim: wins Winston.

[00:30:50] Adam: it was referenced earlier in the movie title

[00:30:51] Ben: what

[00:30:52] Adam: with, uh, with, oh, I'm really mad with myself. I can't remember her name. Yeah, Tina Fey

[00:30:57] Ben: Water. What were you doing there? I didn't, I didn't know what

[00:30:59] Carol: Drinking whiskey.

[00:31:02] Ben: Whiskey.

[00:31:03] Tim: Whiskey.

[00:31:04] Carol: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:05] Adam: So now we've cov covered the movie title. It was Whiskey, tango, Foxtrot.

[00:31:08] Ben: Ah, okay. Okay.

[00:31:10] Carol: Well, I didn't know that.

[00:31:11] Tim: Which? Which? Which is an acronym for wtf?

[00:31:14] Adam: Yes.

[00:31:14] Carol: Oh.

[00:31:15] Tim: Yeah.

[00:31:15] Adam: It's a, it's a military, you know, way of getting around it. Yeah. Situation is whiskey, tango, foxtrot. Anyway, alright, x we're getting close here. Home stretch, the warrior, princess

[00:31:31] Tim: X-ray.

[00:31:32] Carol: Yeah.

[00:31:32] Adam: x-ray is correct.

[00:31:33] Carol: Yep. Good job, Tim.

[00:31:35] Tim: many, there's not many words with x.

[00:31:37] Carol: You're winning. Tim.

[00:31:39] Adam: Why

[00:31:41] Tim: this one. I know cuz. Cuz military guys love this yoga.

[00:31:46] Adam: no

[00:31:47] Tim: No, sing it.

[00:31:48] Ben: Yoda

[00:31:51] Tim: It should be

[00:31:52] Carol: Yeah. Military people enjoy Star Wars. That's true.

[00:31:55] Ben: yesterday.

[00:31:57] Ben: Yolo?

[00:31:59] Ben: Is it yolo?

[00:32:00] Adam: No,

[00:32:01] Ben: Oh, that'd be awesome.

[00:32:03] Adam: it's

[00:32:04] Carol: Is it? Yeah, I was gonna say term for Northerners. Yeah. Yankee.

[00:32:08] Adam: All right. That just leaves zoo. Oh,

[00:32:10] Carol: Dang it.

[00:32:11] Tim: zoo. Let me guess. Lemme guess. It's zebra. you just said Zulu

[00:32:17] Adam: Yeah. Dang it. I ruined it.

[00:32:20] Carol: You messed. I messed up. The first one. You messed up. The last they got album in between.

[00:32:25] Tim: bookend. Yep.

[00:32:27] Adam: All right. Well, that was fun.

[00:32:28] Carol: That was a lot of fun. Thanks, Adam. We loved your game.

[00:32:32] Adam: I, well, okay. I'll take your word for it.

[00:32:35] Carol: no, it was fun.

[00:32:36] Ben: That was fun.

[00:32:37] Carol: Yeah.

[00:32:38] Adam: let's see.

[00:32:39] Book Club

[00:32:39] Adam: Let's talk briefly about Book Club, where we are. so just a reminder, if you would like to join us for book club, you can join our Discord. You can go to workingcode.dev/discord and we have a book club channel there.

[00:32:49] Adam: We also have other fun channels to hang out and talk with listeners and, other coders. Great place to hang out. So book club, we are up through the end of chapter 12. And sorry, it was tough to like come up with sort of talking points about this one because we're starting to get to the point where now if you haven't listened to the book or read the book, we're gonna be like in spoiler territory here.

[00:33:11] Adam: So I'm, I'm, I mean, I guess, there's no way to, to talk about stuff without giving away spoilers. So if you, if you don't want to hear it, then skip ahead. we actually, we put chapters in the episode so that you can do just

[00:33:23] Ben: What? I didn't know we did. We did that.

[00:33:25] Adam: Yeah, dude. If your player supports chapters, then you can just skip to the next chapter.

[00:33:29] Ben: Holy cow.

[00:33:30] Adam: so the, the things that were kind of like the standout topics that they, that they spent a lot of time on in the last couple chapters, or there's like this, hero character, Brent, are you guys reading the book as well?

[00:33:40] Carol: Yes.

[00:33:40] Ben: Yeah, of

[00:33:41] Tim: I'm gonna have read it.

[00:33:42] Carol: Yeah.

[00:33:43] Adam: Yeah. So there's this hero character, Brent, that like everything kind of relies on him because he's the one that knows the most and everybody just.

[00:33:51] Tim: Carol,

[00:33:52] Adam: Everybody just depends on him to fix stuff when it breaks. and he hasn't been good about, building institutional knowledge. So he,

[00:33:59] Carol: There's no time for it sometimes.

[00:34:02] Tim: Yeah. It's a tough, it's a tough challenge. been that guy

[00:34:06] Carol: Yeah. You have.

[00:34:07] Adam: Yep. And the hero can

[00:34:09] Tim: Sounds fun, but it's not.

[00:34:10] Carol: not, it's actually awful.

[00:34:12] Adam: Yeah.

[00:34:13] Adam: but so other, other big things that are going on in the book.

[00:34:15] Adam: so they're obviously struggling with, you know, emergencies and fires, things that they have to deal with. and so they're trying to get their change advisory board back to basics and like just do the minimum to like get situational awareness and, know, plan ahead instead of just like willy-nilly.

[00:34:34] Adam: Oh, the other thing is they need it for compliance, right? They need to be able to say like, we're keeping an eye on what's going into production. And then the thing that's kind of really stands out to me is that the CEO is really doing a terrible job. He's just sort of trying to, like Steve Jobs his way through this whole big like, difficulty that they're having, right?

[00:34:51] Adam: He's just like, find a way, make it work. We have to do all these things. This is the deadline. You can't have any more money. You can't have more people do it. Do your job. Pull some magic beans outta your butt or something.

[00:35:02] Ben: I'll tell you, not necessarily pertaining to this book, but this idea of the balance between the cautious engineer and the. Outrageously optimistic business mind. That seems to be a very recurring theme in like every technology related. Anything that I've read or watched. over the weekend we rented, the movie Blackberry.

[00:35:25] Ben: And this isn't a spoiler, cause isn't like the first five minutes. the, the guys who are building the Blackberry, they're asked to build a prototype and they're like, oh, it's gonna take us a year to build a prototype. And the business guy. Says, all right, well we're gonna meet with the guys on Monday to show it to them so you better have it done by tomorrow.

[00:35:42] Ben: And it's, and like, but you know, I dunno if anyone watched the show, Hal and Catch Fire, Hal and Caught Catch Fire was very much the same way. Right. It's like the very cautious engineer and the business guy who's like selling ideas before they've even built them and, and even Silicon Valley, right? With Richard who's, who's the very brainy one, and then who's the guy who runs the house? Yeah. You know, kind of just throwing all caution to the wind. I, I do feel like there is something to that. I mean, it's exaggerated, I think oftentimes, but there is, there is a magic that happens when you balance out the, the cautious mind with the optimistic futurist mind. And, but it's very frustrating at the same

[00:36:26] Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally get you and a hundred percent agree. I feel like the two things balance each other out very well, but it can get unhealthy very quickly, and you have to very work very hard to not let it do that.

[00:36:40] Tim: Yeah, the tension between those two mindsets, I mean it in some way is beneficial because we've all seen it where like the cautious engineer mine is like, oh no, I definitely am gonna need, you know, so much time. And they're thinking perfect vision, right? And the other guy is just thinking, get me something that works. And so those two having to compromise. It usually, it usually works out. I mean, it really does. It honestly does it, it, it's not perfect for either one of those two categories, those groups, but at least something gets done and I think that's probably one of the biggest business lessons I Lear had to learn early on.

[00:37:18] Tim: Was, was, was the whole fail fast.

[00:37:21] Ben: Mm.

[00:37:22] Tim: Don't spend three years building something and then realize, cuz because I mean, there's been times I've put something out that I thought, oh yeah, everyone needs this. Everybody wants

[00:37:29] Carol: so great.

[00:37:30] Tim: there was some, there's something I created that was for compliance and I put it out there like nobody wanted it

[00:37:35] Adam: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:36] Tim: because they realized that the co compliance body that was, that was doing it had no enforcement arm.

[00:37:41] Tim: So all of 'em were like, no, we're not paying for this. What's the worst that's gonna happen? They're not gonna catch us. So had I not, I wasted an entire year building that when I could have just kind of put a very simple prototype out there and realized no one's gonna buy it.

[00:37:55] Adam: Right.

[00:37:56] Tim: something I think people might buy that they haven't bought in the past is vr.

[00:38:02] Adam: Okay. I have a VR

[00:38:05] Carol: We have two vrs.

[00:38:07] Adam: one for each house. Of course, it's important.

[00:38:10] Tim: What are we talking about?

[00:38:11] Ben: wait. Are we switching topics now?

[00:38:13] Carol: Are we? Yeah.

[00:38:14] Adam: Apparently.

[00:38:16] VR/AR

[00:38:16] Tim: So what two vrs do you have, Carol?

[00:38:18] Carol: I don't know what they're called. We have the Oculus or something. We have Yeah, those, those things.

[00:38:24] Adam: the same one.

[00:38:25] Carol: Yeah. We have one at each house. Yeah. Because we used to have to maintain two households.

[00:38:30] Tim: Mm-hmm. And how often do you, how often do you guys actually use those?

[00:38:34] Carol: So there's a video of me playing with it of one of them on Christmas Day because I gave my kid money to put more games on it because I didn't like what he had. That's the last time I've touched it. The other one's been in a drawer here since I moved in here with Steve. Yeah.

[00:38:49] Ben: Is it primarily for games? What do people use VR for?

[00:38:53] Tim: So far that's sort of been the big thing,

[00:38:55] Adam: the. Consumer VR is pretty much

[00:38:57] Tim: games aren't, haven't been good.

[00:38:58] Carol: they're not that great.

[00:39:00] Adam: there's some that I really enjoyed. I mean, like there's, you can do YouTube in it. So like if you don't have a big screen TV and you don't mind having a, you know, a raccoon face after you've been wearing it for two hours to watch

[00:39:11] Tim: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:12] Adam: you know, you can have what, what amounts to a big screen experience, by putting on a vr, right?

[00:39:17] Adam: Cuz you can, it can just look like it's massive in front of you. but.

[00:39:21] Carol: they have workout apps, Ben.

[00:39:24] Adam: They do.

[00:39:24] Carol: Yeah.

[00:39:25] Ben: It's funny.

[00:39:25] Tim: yeah.

[00:39:26] Adam: So are you, are you familiar with, like Beat Saber?

[00:39:29] Carol: Yep. Being Saber. Yeah.

[00:39:31] Adam: Ben.

[00:39:32] Carol: that's me slinging my arm too, guys.

[00:39:34] Adam: okay. Ben has no idea. So, so Beat Saber is

[00:39:37] Ben: or whatever? Fruit Ninja.

[00:39:38] Adam: okay, so hang on. You're, you're kind of in the right ballpark. So take, you've seen like Guitar Hero.

[00:39:43] Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:43] Adam: Okay, so Guitar Hero, the, the notes come down the screen and as they get to a certain spot, you have to like play that chord or that note just right in time and it, everything lines up and you get points for whatever, right?

[00:39:53] Adam: So Beat Saber is similar. The notes kind of are flying at you cuz we're, now, we're in 3D space with vr, right? So the notes are flying at you and you have to, you have, you're holding a lightsaber in each hand and you have to like smack the note with the lightsaber and like cut it in half in time with the music and like at the

[00:40:09] Ben: All right. All right. That's cool.

[00:40:11] Adam: And I mean, it gets pretty vigorous, right? You know, you can have it on easy mode. We're like, do, do, do. Or you can get on expert where it's like, you know, like, let's play rushee or whatever, right? Like, it's crazy.

[00:40:22] Apple Vision Pro

[00:40:22] Tim: did anyone watch today the release of the Vision Pro from Apple? Because that, that's kind of what made me wanna talk about this.

[00:40:28] Carol: I did not,

[00:40:29] Adam: watch, but I have seen some, some photos, like promotional photos of looks ridiculous.

[00:40:34] Tim: So I wa so I watched, I watched the whole thing They did because I, I knew this was coming and, you know, read about it over the weekend, that's, they're gonna announce it on Monday. I'm like, all right. And they already said, what? The price is gonna be like $3,500. I'm like, oh my God. 35. Yeah. $3,500.

[00:40:49] Carol: crap.

[00:40:51] Adam: now is this? is

[00:40:51] Adam: this VR or ar or Both?

[00:40:53] Tim: it's both.

[00:40:54] Tim: All right, so, so it,

[00:40:55] Carol: hang on, hang on. What is ar? Augmented reality?

[00:40:59] Tim: correct. Yep. Yep. So, you know, this thing, they, they, they put it on your head and you can actually see, well, I don't know. You can see through it. You can you, it's like you can see through it. I think there's cameras.

[00:41:10] Adam: Okay.

[00:41:11] Tim: So you can like be in your bedroom or your living room and you can see the entire room and you see like, just kind of hovering in the air, the, your app like, like an iPhone app, like those little icons that they have.

[00:41:24] Tim: And you can, you know, just look at them in order to select them. You don't need any special peripherals. You can just, you know, click your finger. So just.

[00:41:32] Adam: Tap

[00:41:32] Tim: Click your finger together. Yeah, tap your finger together and so it sees what you're looking at. And so basically you've just selected the app, and if you wanna scroll, you just slightly, you know, move your finger up and down to scroll something or back and forth to scroll.

[00:41:44] Tim: So it knows where you're looking. and you can like, make things bigger as most you can, like do, like Adam was saying, you could be looking at your own wall and like see if people are like around you or you know, your dogs are going by or whatever. You can see your area, you can see like a giant screen on your wall and watch a movie or YouTube or an Excel spreadsheet or a Word doc, things like that.

[00:42:05] Adam: Can't wait to get some, some big screen IMAX spreadsheets going,

[00:42:09] Tim: Yeah. But I mean, so it's like each, each eye is a 4K screen. So you're looking at four 4k, I mean the old Oculus.

[00:42:17] Adam: there.

[00:42:18] Carol: well, So like my thing is that I really enjoy a minimalist desk. Like I want nothing on my desk. So the thought of not needing monitors is really cool, and I could just have my notebook on the side and either a virtual keyboard or a real keyboard, whatever needs to look like. I could then have a clean desk all the time, just a set of goggles sitting on my desk.

[00:42:41] Carol: That's pretty cool to me.

[00:42:43] Ben: So here, here's something that I wonder about and, and this is just like a, a phy a physics question. I guess. They, they say, people who come out of prison, they, their eyes don't focus very well because they spend so much time in a tiny room where it's like, the farthest you can see away from you is six feet.

[00:43:01] Ben: So your eyes like literally, Get weak in terms of focusing in long distance. When you're looking at a screen that's like two inches away from you, even if you're, even if it seems like you're looking at something that's far away, is your eye still focusing, like it's looking off into the distance, or are you, basically, is your eye getting weak in terms of like only looking two inches into the

[00:43:24] Tim: that's a good question. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:43:27] Adam: I am not a doctor.

[00:43:28] Tim: It's simulated distance, but you're right, the

[00:43:30] Carol: You're actually still there. Yeah.

[00:43:32] Tim: Yeah.

[00:43:33] Ben: I

[00:43:33] Adam: It's a good question cuz like you could, they could make it so that it looks like, I would think that they could make it so that it looks like it's in the distance and you have to

[00:43:40] Tim: Oh yeah, you can, you can like select a screen and like pull it closer to you or further away. And it will, it, it helps you sense how far away it is by like, there's like, the screen will have a shadow. So if your coffee table is like three feet in front of you and you pull the screen toward you, you'll see the shadow of that screen moving over your coffee table.

[00:44:00] Ben: That's cool. Because I, I know when I was a kid, I never needed glasses. And I got glasses when I was, like 27 or something, and the optometrist was like, yeah, that's because you stare at a computer

[00:44:16] Carol: All day. Yeah.

[00:44:17] Ben: for eight straight hours. And so, you know, I, I'd only be very nervous that that would only get much worse.

[00:44:25] Tim: You know what? As you get older, it's gonna get worse no matter what. So, and then the other weird thing about it, so it, you can't see through it, like I said earlier, but they want you to have like, so, because you can see your surrounding, right? So if someone's walking up to you, you can see them coming so that you can like scan your face and it will put your, like your eyes.

[00:44:47] Tim: So they have a screen on the outside.

[00:44:49] Adam: Oh, is that what that is?

[00:44:50] Carol: Yeah.

[00:44:51] Tim: Yeah, so they have, they have a screen on the outside, and so it simulates, so anytime you blink, your eyes blink on the outside, it shows. So, and if you look at someone, you can maintain eye contact, but it's not your eyes.

[00:45:01] Adam: right, that's,

[00:45:02] Ben: That's crazy.

[00:45:04] Adam: Looks awful though. I, I'm looking at this one photo that they, it was posted in our Discord and I, the first thing that I noticed was like, that eye does not match up with that dude's head, and it just looks so creepy.

[00:45:18] Tim: I mean, regardless, it still looks pretty dorky. I mean, they, they look like big ski goggles, but I mean, they look better, they look better than anything that's

[00:45:25] Carol: Oh Yeah.

[00:45:27] Adam: He needs a, he needs a 1990s puffy jacket.

[00:45:29] Tim: Yeah, exactly. And, and it's like, it can integrate with your Mac. If you have a Macintosh, you can like integrate with that and you can grab the screen from your Mac and throw it up into your, your vision and, and must do that.

[00:45:40] Tim: But, I think the real thing, I, I gotta try one of these because if, if, you know, when we first saw the iPhone, you just saw this thing with a, you know, a button and it was flat. It was flat, but then once you actually touched it and started playing with the os you're like, wow, this is really intuitive. So I think that's what this thing's gonna live and die off of when it comes out sometime next year, is how intuitive is that user experience?

[00:46:04] Tim: Because the, every, I've had, I had an early version of Oculus that Simon Free gave me, and. I got so motion

[00:46:11] Carol: Yeah, it's terrible.

[00:46:13] Tim: It was awful. I got so motion sick playing it. I played it for, you know, first, first the, I guess the newness of it was cool. Then it's like, actually really try to play a game. And I was like, I, I had to put it down cause I was about to puke.

[00:46:24] Tim: But they say, but they say they have like two like really powerful chips inside this thing to help. One is for the, the OS that they have Vision Os and others for basically, Having fast response time for the OS and for the the images, so we'll see.

[00:46:40] Ben: I wonder if this is gonna be amazing for people who have, like mobility issues.

[00:46:45] Carol: Oh yeah.

[00:46:47] Adam: I've heard of, some vr like helping people that have like eye issues, like a lazy eye or, or like other, maybe, maybe not a lazy eye, but like, you know, that that sort of like, you know, vision based problem. I've heard that certain VR there can be like VR based therapy to help deal with that.

[00:47:04] Adam: Sounds

[00:47:04] Ben: that's cool.

[00:47:05] Tim: They really didn't demo very much. You know, I imagine it's probably cuz it's bad. So like trying to do a FaceTime call cuz there is no external camera, right? The thing is on your face. So you can like, hold the, the, the vision pro up to your face and it'll scan you, right? It'll scan your face, and that can be used as to unlock and lock the thing.

[00:47:26] Tim: But also, like whenever you're in a, in a Zoom call or a FaceTime call or whatever, it will generate your face, which

[00:47:33] Carol: Oh.

[00:47:34] Tim: imagine can't be fantastic, but,

[00:47:36] Carol: wondering how that would work, right? Like that just would, it seems like it'd be so weird, right? Because it, you would need to have a, a picture of you wearing the goggles or a generated picture of you, cuz otherwise it's not really you.

[00:47:48] Tim: It's just generated, it's a

[00:47:50] Carol: Yeah.

[00:47:51] Tim: and so it like tries to copy when you talk, your mouth movements and you're blinking and all that stuff. So,

[00:47:57] Adam: yeah, I'm, I'm, I remember seeing a video of something very similar to that. I'm not sure if that was from like the new version of the Oculus coming or if that was like a de early demo of the Apple stuff or what. It was impressive for how good it was, and also creepy at how bad it was, like at the same time.

[00:48:13] Adam: It was very

[00:48:14] Tim: in that uncanny valley, yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:17] Ben: Here. Here's something that I think about when I'm at my desk. I don't like using things like over the ear headphones or noise canceling. Cause I. I don't like being disconnected from my surroundings. I, I don't, I, I hate the idea of people being able to like, walk close to me and, and not notice that they're there.

[00:48:38] Ben: and I think that would be a, a big issue for me with something like this. It, it, it would, I'd be so disconnected from anything that's going on around me.

[00:48:45] Tim: So here's what they said about that. Cause I was thinking the same thing you said, Ben, is that, so they have a, this like strap that goes over your ear, that that goes to the back of your head to try to, you know, fit the

[00:48:56] Carol: But, but it's not over the, like your ear opening, it goes over the top of your ear. Yeah. So your, your ears still open. Yeah.

[00:49:04] Tim: Yeah. So supposedly you could still hear what's coming through your speakers and like, you know, surround sound kind of thing, but also, Hear the room around you, just like you can see the room around you. So they're trying to make it that, that combination of ar where you're still in touch with your surroundings and you're really just kind of looking at a monitor and there's speakers playing, but you're not completely isolated, but, and they can choose a level if you wanna completely black it out or do whatever, you can do that.

[00:49:30] Tim: But if you don't want to, if you're working and you just wanna be aware of your surroundings, supposedly you can do that too.

[00:49:36] Adam: So I saw actually a really cool demo. I think this was from the Oculus, from, it was on Mkb HD's YouTube channel. He does a lot of tech videos. and basically, if I'm not mistaken, he had, a MacBook on the desk and he, you know, had had it on and then he put on. The Oculus and it like somehow paired and then you could have multiple displays from the MacBook, right?

[00:49:57] Adam: So it's like you're maybe even like, think about like sitting on a plane, right? And you can have five displays going at once. You know, one with your team chat and one with your, you know, your code and one is your running the browser for your app or whatever can like pull into to work on the code and then push it back out and, and work on or look at run the app, whatever.

[00:50:15] Adam: That seems really intriguing to me, like, The ability, yeah, the ability to have a portable system that gives you a super customizable, big workspace. That's very interesting. But what I really wanna see is, can we get co-pilot to pop up in the corner and ask

[00:50:31] Carol: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:32] Adam: like clippy?

[00:50:34] Tim: Yeah. They're making you use Siri. Hopefully they improve Siri for, for some of that stuff. But the, I honestly, so the coolest thing I saw, and I would really like to, and you have to experience it in 3D cuz they have a lot 3D components. I'm watching 3D movies, but so you have a 3D camera built into the Vision Pro, and so of course you're gonna look like a dork, but you don't look a dork

[00:50:57] Carol: Yeah, you are.

[00:50:57] Tim: wearing this thing like, so you got your kids, you know, partying, whatever, you got the thing on and you can like 3D video what's going on.

[00:51:05] Tim: It records the whole thing and then you can watch it back and it's like being in the room

[00:51:09] Carol: Oh my goodness. See, I saw the watch it back part, but I didn't know what it meant. Right. Like I didn't see that it was 3d. That's really cool.

[00:51:17] Tim: So it's a very black mirror. I mean,

[00:51:19] Ben: interesting.

[00:51:21] Carol: yeah.

[00:51:21] Tim: but I would love to experience that just to see what that looks like, to just like record something, a memory, and then just pull that back and go, oh, yeah,

[00:51:29] Carol: No,

[00:51:29] Ben: the thing though, for like $3,500, I will never try this. Like

[00:51:34] Carol: I will try friends if they ever buy it, you know? Yeah.

[00:51:38] Tim: I'll go to the Apple store and

[00:51:40] Carol: There you go. Yeah.

[00:51:41] Adam: There you go. Perfect.

[00:51:43] Tim: Yeah, they're trying to pitch it like, you know, if you tried to buy all these different components

[00:51:47] Carol: monitors. Yeah.

[00:51:49] Tim: 4, 2, 2 4K monitors and the super high end sound system and the, the CPU that's in there, like it would cost you more than this. But, so it's really a bargain, like

[00:51:59] Ben: really funny.

[00:52:00] Tim: still costs more than my first car.

[00:52:01] Carol: Yeah, and I already have monitors now. I have too many monitors.

[00:52:05] Tim: Yeah.

[00:52:07] Ben: Oh man.

[00:52:07] Tim: don't have any 4K monitors. So I, I just, I mean, ar and VR has like been on the horizon for years now, and it is, it'd be interesting to see if Apple can pull what they did with the mobile

[00:52:20] Carol: If we actually have a, a competition now and something that can actually dominate the market. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:26] Tim: Something that, that brings it to the mainstream. And, and from what I read, they've been working on this for like almost a decade.

[00:52:31] Carol: wow.

[00:52:32] Ben: Oh wow.

[00:52:32] Tim: And the reason they, that they were really pressuring to push, to push it out is they're afraid that the tech is gonna get old before, you know, the tech that they've been working on is gonna get old before, you know, they can capitalize on it. They, they mentioned like, like several hundred patents that they've

[00:52:50] Carol: Oh, wow.

[00:52:51] Tim: building this thing just to, so we'll see.

[00:52:55] Tim: Maybe Apple can do it again, or maybe it'll just be like, remember the Google glasses you had, Carol?

[00:52:59] Carol: they, they're crap. Yeah. Terrible.

[00:53:03] Adam: it, you're talking about the Google glass,

[00:53:05] Carol: Yeah, the little glass. Yeah. But you wore, you wore 'em like glasses, but it was like over one eye. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:12] Adam: I never got to play with that. It looked interesting, but I bet it was pretty dorky.

[00:53:15] Carol: Yeah.

[00:53:16] Tim: yeah. Carol brought it to, one of our user group meetings and everyone was geeking out over it, but it's like it was completely impractical.

[00:53:22] Carol: don't even remember where I got it from. Someone gave it to me or something. I honestly don't remember cuz I don't have them now, so. Yeah.

[00:53:31] Ben: Yeah, when I was a kid, I had a Nintendo Power glove that, that was like the

[00:53:36] Tim: Jealous.

[00:53:38] Adam: that's why, how you knew you were the popular kid.

[00:53:40] Carol: Yeah.

[00:53:40] Tim: yeah, that's, that's a mighty flex there, man.

[00:53:43] Ben: Yeah. Humble brag.


[00:53:45] Patreon

[00:53:45] Adam: All right, I guess then this is where I tell you that this episode, Working Code is brought to you by Papa Alpha, tango, ar, Romeo, Oscar, November, Sierra, and listeners like you,

[00:53:55] Ben: What does that smell something? I'm not good at

[00:53:57] Adam: it did Papa, alpha,

[00:53:59] Tim: Play it back.

[00:54:01] Adam: Romeo, Oscar, November, Sierra.

[00:54:03] Adam: Pat? Uh.And listeners like you, if you're enjoying the show and you wanna make sure we can keep putting more of whatever this was out into the universe than you should consider supporting us on Patreon. Our patrons cover our recording and editing costs, and we couldn't do this every week without them. Special thanks as always to our top patrons, Monte and Giancarlo.

[00:54:22] Adam: You guys rock. So after we are done recording this show, we're just gonna hang up cuz we actually recorded our after show, uh, early tonight. so, I can tell you what we talked about primarily in the after show, was, I am pursuing getting my tandem instructor rating for skydiving.

[00:54:38] Carol: Yeah.

[00:54:39] Adam: uh, fun

[00:54:40] Tim: Oh no, not. At Bikes?

[00:54:42] Adam: No, no, I'm not tandem. Bicycle or, or tandem paraglider? No,

[00:54:45] Tim: okay. Okay.

[00:54:47] Adam: yeah. You

[00:54:48] Tim: I wasn't in there, so yeah, you, I ran late. So thank you for guys for waiting for me.

[00:54:53] Adam: Of course.

[00:54:54] Thanks For Listening!

[00:54:54] Adam: so anyway, I don't know if I already said this part, but if you'd like to help us out, you can go to patreon.com/working code Pod. that's gonna do it for us this week. We'll catch you next week and until then.

[00:55:03] Tim: Remember, your heart matters even if you don't have a super cooled Tinto power glove, like Ben

[00:55:10] Adam: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:11] Tim: just saying,

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