094: Disagree And Commit

28 September, 2022

Transcript

Spot an error? Send a pull request on GitHub.

[00:00:00] Ben: And when you're told to just tow the line, it almost feels. Someone has forgotten your humanity, that they're just asking you to cast aside your feelings and your, and your thinking on the topic and just do what you're told. You know, they, they forgot

[00:00:14] Tim: Yeah.

[00:00:15] Tim: Beatings will continue until morale improves

[00:00:19] Intro

[00:00:19] Adam: Okay, here we go. It is show number 94 and on today's show, we are going to disagree and commit. I mean, we're gonna talk about disagreeing and committing, um,

[00:00:47] Tim: I disagree. Let's not talk about this.

[00:00:49] Adam: Well, the decision has been made and so we're gonna do, and I need you to get on board, Tim

[00:00:53] Tim: Okay. All right. I'm on board.

[00:00:54] Adam: unfortunately Carol couldn't be with us tonight.

[00:00:56] Adam: She had something come up, so it's just the three guys. We will try to do her justice,

[00:01:00] Tim: And you wanna explain your audio?

[00:01:02] Adam: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good point. my microphone just decided it's not gonna work right now, so I apologize. You're getting headphone microphone and hopefully Matt can make it sound like not a in post Good luck, Matt. okay. So as usual, let's start with our chime and fails. And then Ben, I'm coming to you first.

[00:01:20] Ben's Triumph

[00:01:20] Ben: I'm gonna kick us off with a triumph. And that is that, on Monday I was talking to my team and I had an idea for a feature that I wanted to add to the product and it is now Thursday. So it's four days later and I have deployed, not a hundred percent feature, complete version of the thing I wanted to build, but definitely I think, well, past MVP to production and to users and I have amplitude analytics attached to it and I can see people using it.

[00:01:48] Ben: So I just feel like, I don't know. I, I, I just get the little happy dance in my head when I can take an idea from pure conceptual and, and turn it into a reality and deploy it. And I made some demo videos and I had a demo video internally and a demo video that I made for public consumption. And I was just feeling very proud of myself today.

[00:02:09] Ben: Which is good because I think no one else felt proud of me. So

[00:02:13] Tim: back yourself.

[00:02:15] Ben: someone's gotta do it.

[00:02:16] Adam: did that internal video get any comments?

[00:02:20] Ben: I, I think I got likes on the video. That was basically it

[00:02:24] Adam: that's better than zero.

[00:02:25] Ben: true. That's, a million times better than zero. So anyway, it was just, it was just a good week, but it's a, it's a long week. I'm happy. It's Thursday. I'm happy. It's almost Friday. And, I'm turning 42 this weekend. So

[00:02:40] Tim: sweet summer child.

[00:02:41] Ben: yeah.

[00:02:41] Ben: Get a little older, older and

[00:02:43] Adam: the answer to life, the universe and

[00:02:45] Adam: everyth.

[00:02:45] Tim: Yeah.

[00:02:46] Ben: So that's me, Tim. What do you got going?

[00:02:49] Tim's Triumph

[00:02:49] Tim: So I, I got a follow up from last week and a triumph for this week. So the follow up from last week, I talked about how I. Kinda refactored and re re-approached how I was dealing with, you know, we, we do with payments and I'm making sure the payments are applied to the, the system of record and, just kind of fine tune it the rest of the week and it's working fantastic.

[00:03:07] Tim: So I was just, it just, I don't, I'm kicking myself that I didn't think about this sooner, cuz this really was the way I should have done it to begin with. you know, it's, the process takes, you know, 34 milliseconds versus, you know, sometimes it could take, you know, 10 seconds to run. So,

[00:03:23] Tim: and doing that over thousands and thousands of payments is, is quite impactful and it's a lot more accurate.

[00:03:30] Tim: I got a lot of false positives on the other one and that just, it just created noise. So having that is great. but my triumph for this week is I won't be here next week or the week after.

[00:03:41] Ben: Where you going, Tim?

[00:03:43] Tim: I won't be here. I will be in London next week. so Thursday I'm flying out, heading to London for a work conference.

[00:03:50] Tim: That's from Sunday night until, Friday night. And I, I get to hang out with my number one, hater, Adam Cameron

[00:03:59] Ben: Oh, yes.

[00:04:00] Tim: some beers with him in London, because he's been way he's been way too complimentary to like complimentary to me lately. He's been said some really nice things. And so I gotta go over there and just kind of ruffle his feathers so I can really get that hate to feed off of

[00:04:13] Adam: Given, what for,

[00:04:14] Tim: yeah.

[00:04:14] Tim: Give him well for it. Hopefully I can see, Matt Gifford as well. I sent him a message, although I know he doesn't live in London and I don't know how far, wherever he lives. I think St. Albans is, but yeah, I like to see all my, my London peeps, that listen to the show and hang out and have a beer with him.

[00:04:28] Tim: So I'm looking forward.

[00:04:29] Adam: are you guys gonna go ride the line ride?

[00:04:32] Tim: I have no plans. Well, I'm gonna do some food stuff.

[00:04:35] Ben: What is the

[00:04:36] Tim: go to some, what is the line ride?

[00:04:38] Adam: oh my God. It was incredibly insensitive of me to our, our English listeners. the queen

[00:04:44] Tim: Oh, no,

[00:04:45] Ben: Oh,

[00:04:45] Adam: the the line that's like four and a half miles long as

[00:04:48] Tim: no. She'll, she'll be buried by that time I checked. I'm like, I do not wanna be there. Well, all this is going on. All that stuff should be done by the time I get there on Thursday,they put her in the ground on Monday, I think.

[00:04:58] Ben: apparently they're planning for that line to get, at least as much as 10 miles long. They're preparing.

[00:05:05] Adam: somewhere that they would, they would like just cut it off. If it got five miles long,

[00:05:08] Adam: that's it. You can't get in line. Nobody

[00:05:09] Tim: It's like a, it's like 11 hours

[00:05:12] Adam: Yeah.

[00:05:12] Tim: line right now to, you're just standing there in line in the, in the wonderful British weather. So

[00:05:18] Ben: Well, very cool man. Say hi to

[00:05:20] Ben: everybody.

[00:05:21] Tim: I will. How about you? Oh, Carol's not here. So sorry, Carol. Hope everything's okay, Adam, how about you?

[00:05:28] Adam's Triumph

[00:05:28] Adam: So I guess I'm gonna call this a triumph. I have been doing a SOC two policy review. I am down to the point where I have one policy remaining. we did our risk assessment. Which is another big, like, you know, discovery of all of the things that you have to figure out and questions you have to answer.

[00:05:45] Adam: And so at this point now the, the remaining 99% of the work can begin. so I'm calling that a triumph. This has just been a monkey on my back for the longest time. Now, I don't even know how many weeks I've been talking about this on the show and it feels

[00:05:56] Tim: Feels like four.

[00:05:58] Adam: Yeah. And it feels like, you know, just hand cranking the, the can opener here, and we've finally gotten the can of worms open.

[00:06:04] Adam: It's like, okay, now I have to eat this.

[00:06:06] Tim: have the, so auditors come back with any feedback yet.

[00:06:09] Adam: oh, we don't, we haven't even engaged any auditors yet.

[00:06:11] Adam: This is all

[00:06:12] Tim: with good luck with that. That's even more painful.

[00:06:14] Adam: so we I've done some interviewing of auditors and I think we know who we're gonna go with and they will actually participate in the readiness phase of our, of our audit project, which is like, it's a, it's a scrimmage.

[00:06:27] Adam: Right? So that we go through the process of. Gathering all of our details and making sure we have all our ducks in a row and they go, okay. Yeah, this looks like it should pass. and then we go, okay, so game on, right? The, the, the review period begins and the, this process, we're doing a type two SOC two, which is, not just a point in time type one is a point in time, like, okay, at the moment that you submitted all this information, the information was good and compliant type two is for a period of time, let's, you know, nine months or a year or whatever you were, not only compliant, but like the things that are supposed to evolve over time, you actually did those things.

[00:07:00] Adam: You remained compliant. and so the, the company that I think that we're gonna engage with, will help us make sure that we have our ducks lined up correctly so that when we do start the, the, the real review period, it won't be like, oh, okay, well, I guess we'd start over because we missed this and we missed that, and this was wrong, whatever, but.

[00:07:21] Adam: It's a, it's just a gigantic monkey on my back and I hate it, but it's gotta be done, you know?

[00:07:28] Tim: I'm so glad we have a GRC group that handles all that for us or shields us from it. We still have to answer questions from internal, but

[00:07:35] Tim: yeah,

[00:07:35] Tim: they deal with all that.

[00:07:37] Adam: We are not big enough to have, a department of people who enjoy that type of work. So

[00:07:42] Ben: You know, kind of on a unrelated, but maybe slightly tangential topic because you work with customer data and you house that data to some degree. do you ever have universities that send you, a security questionnaire? That's like 200

[00:07:57] Adam: my God. Excel is the bane of our existence in that regard, you know, they, they send you these spreadsheets with, with a questionnaire and it's like, okay, you know, row number 45 is this question. And you're supposed to like, what pasting your policy in column C? Like

[00:08:13] Adam: it's, you know, it's A thousand words long or something it's like really?

[00:08:17] Adam: But yeah.

[00:08:19] Tim: that is kinda the benefit of like a PCI audit or a SOC two audit. You can just say all your questions are answered in here. You

[00:08:26] Tim: find, and we're not, you know, cuz you got so many customers and all of 'em have a different format for those questions. Like I'm not answering all these, here's our SOC two, you find out the answers from there.

[00:08:34] Tim: If you don't understand something, let me know.

[00:08:36] Adam: Mm-hmm yeah, that is the primary motivator for us going through this process.

[00:08:40] Ben: oh, nice. Yeah. I was just gonna say, so this might make your life a lot easier with customers.

[00:08:45] Adam: Not so much my life, but, our business is life Steve's life. Yeah. Yeah. Steve's life.

[00:08:50] Ben: taking one for the team now so that Steve can be happier later.

[00:08:54] Adam: Absolutely.

[00:08:55] Tim: me though is like the really big companies are like, no, no, you need to fill out ours.

[00:08:59] Adam: Yeah.

[00:09:00] Ben: We've had

[00:09:00] Tim: okay.

[00:09:02] Adam: Whew. I I'm sure that will happen. I'm glad that it doesn't land on my desk.

[00:09:08] Tim: Yeah,

[00:09:10] Tim: until it does

[00:09:12] Adam: And then, you know, a little, a minor personal triumph that I wanted to attack on here. so we adopted a dog, Lucy, I mentioned a few weeks back.

[00:09:19] Adam: Um, and

[00:09:20] Tim: You and Ben both have dogs named Lucy.

[00:09:22] Adam: yeah, yeah, that was entirely unintentional. so we adopted a dog maybe, I guess it was like maybe five or six weeks ago. And, her name was Lucy, like at the shelter.

[00:09:33] Adam: Right. You know, they all have names when you get them. I, I have never in my life gotten a pet and not renamed it until this one, but you know, she's two years old. I don't know how long and how many people have been calling her Lucy. So, and we liked, you know, we, we considered changing the name, but we just felt like it fitter.

[00:09:48] Adam: So we kept it. we very briefly considered spelling Lucy with two E on the end to, I guess, pay homage to Lucy, the software product,

[00:09:57] Ben: Uh, sir, you're, you're warming my heart.

[00:10:01] Adam: But then I remembered I don't like CFML. And so we decided that was like a deal breaker.

[00:10:06] Ben:

[00:10:06] Adam: well, so we, we, we adopted her several weeks back and, as it turns out, we didn't find out until like, we're basically signing the paperwork and signing the check to pay for her that she had heartworm, which I've never had a dog that had heartworm before. I just always knew something to be avoided and always treated my dogs to, to avoid it in the first place. and I had no idea how much of a big deal it is and, and how difficult the care for it is. I mean, the, things that you have to do, the, like the medical treatment is not hard. She gets a couple of shots and basically she's on bedrest. for,

[00:10:39] Tim: but how do you keep a dog on bedrest?

[00:10:42] Adam: it's not easy. Let me tell you, I mean, she's a, she's a lab mix and, and if we let her, she would have lots of energy.

[00:10:48] Adam: So in an, in an attempt to not have to keep her indoor crate all day and all night, I have spent the last month working from my sofa with her tied up on like a six or eight foot leash to the coffee table. So I can keep an eye on her. Occasionally I've had her here in my office with me. but she seems to like it and, and relax better down at the coffee table.

[00:11:08] Adam: so I've

[00:11:09] Adam: spent the last month working from, yeah. I mean, I don't just want to drug her as much as I would, you know, If I were in her position, I'd be like, yeah, knock me out, wake me up when it's over. But at the same time, like that, that's no way to live. and she's a very smart, very sweet dog. And we just try to give her lots of attention and love and, and discourage any zoomies and Melissa, anyway, we're, we're at the halfway point.

[00:11:34] Adam: So with, this treatment, you know, you, they get a shot and then they have to be basically on bedrest, no exercise. I can't even like walk her around the circle that we live on. She's like, we just don't take her out of our yard. and that's for a month, which we just finished and she just got another shot tonight.

[00:11:49] Adam: And then we'll take her again tomorrow for, you know, shots two and three, and then it's another four to six weeks of like bedrest.

[00:11:57] Ben: Oh my goodness.

[00:11:59] Adam: yeah. Yeah. And you know, we, we can get into the details of it. I was kind of gonna talk about it in the, the after show. So maybe I'll save some of it for that, but, it's.

[00:12:08] Adam: Taking a toll on me personally, just because I'm the one that works from home. So a lot of it falls on me, but I I'm we're halfway through. So I'm, I'm excited about that.

[00:12:17] Tim: I'm glad they have. We give our dogs the, they have a vaccine for.

[00:12:21] Tim: But you gotta keep it up and it's so worth it, cuz yeah. You don't wanna have to go through that hassle.

[00:12:26] Adam: yep. Part card

[00:12:28] Ben: Yeah. I didn't even know what heartworm was. I mean, Lucy takes the, she takes AFL intake medication and she takes the heart the hard guard also. But I just do that because that's what the vet said to do. I didn't really know what it even was, so

[00:12:40] Adam: yeah, I,

[00:12:41] Ben: sucks.

[00:12:42] Adam: I made it 40 years of my life without really understanding how bad it is to try and get rid of like, you know it.

[00:12:49] Tim: worm in your heart. Sounds pretty bad.

[00:12:51] Ben: It does

[00:12:51] Adam: Yeah. But you know, most things in life. I feel like you can, we, we get the impression that, oh, you just take a pill or you just get an injection. And that fixes that. And that's true, but it's also not true.

[00:13:02] Adam: Like there's a lot more to it than that. So. Anyway, let's move on. Let's talk about, working in, in the technology industry. You guys think so

[00:13:12] Ben: I think let's.

[00:13:12] Tim: I don't know. Let's let's convert this to working dogs.com.

[00:13:17] Adam: well, I disagree and I have all the power here, so we're going with my thing.

[00:13:23] Tim: All right. Benevolent dictator.

[00:13:26] Adam: I have you guys gave me a microphone, so I'm gonna use it. so, actually, Ben, this was your idea. Do you wanna introduce it?

[00:13:32] Disagree And Commit

[00:13:32] Ben: Yeah, sure. So a, a couple of weeks or months ago, we did a topic on, strong opinions, loosely held. So I've had that kind of simmering the back of my mind.

[00:13:42] Tim: that was a potluck episode,

[00:13:43] Ben: was it a potluck maybe? Yeah. and, and

[00:13:45] Ben: then last episode, or the episode before that I had mentioned about, some regrets at work.

[00:13:51] Ben: Obviously we've had a huge reorg at work as, as a bunch of tech companies have had lately. And, in that episode, I was talking about that my biggest regrets at work have been seeing someone put forth an. Feeling very strongly that that idea was not a good one to proceed with, but not really putting my foot down or not voicing my dissent strong enough.

[00:14:17] Ben: And then the company went ahead with it and, and some of those decisions turned out to be good ones. So this is obviously, I'm not saying I'm, I'm always right here, but some of those decisions turned out to be really terrible ones and, and terrible ones that we've continued to pay for for a long time. And so I've had all this sort of percolating in the back of my head and I was listening to a podcast maybe just yesterday or the day before. And someone brought up this idea of disagree and commit. And this is something that we've talked about at work every now and then we're someone, there'll be some decision that the company has to make either about a product that we wanna develop or, or the direction that the company is gonna go in.

[00:14:56] Ben: And there's some dissent there's people who wanna do this. Some people who wanna do the other thing. And at one point, the company makes a decision to proceed with a path. And the disagree and commit concept is that it's okay to have Discord and dissent prior to a decision. But once a decision gets made, everybody just has to commit to it and get on board and start towing the company line. And, I'm a very emotional person. I'm very emotionally attached to my code. I'm very emotionally attached to my decisions on the, on the strong opinions, loosely held. I talked about how it, it doesn't make sense to me. Why would I have strong opinions if I didn't wanna hold them strongly? And, and this is kind of that same mentality, but applied to business that if I disagree with something, and then I'm asked to just go along with the opposite, I feel like I'm so emotional that I'm not just gonna automatically become enthused about the thing I'm told to do.

[00:15:54] Ben: I'm I'm gonna disengage a bit. And, I actually looked up, I Googled for the, The, the phrase, the opposite. I, was it, I, I, I Googled for the phrase, the opposite of disagreement is indifference. And I came up with this, Ellie wise L quote, the opposite of love is not hate it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness.

[00:16:14] Ben: It's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death it's indifference. And, and clearly he has some strong opinions about the opposite of affirmations . And, and to me, I feel like a little bit the same way that the opposite of disagreement isn't agreement for me, the opposite of disagreement becomes indifference.

[00:16:38] Ben: And if I'm gonna have people building a product, I, I don't want people who are indifferent. I want people who are excited and understand the value proposition and are totally on board, cuz they're gonna be the people who I think have the right instincts and the right motivations. And the idea of just pulling people along for the ride doesn't doesn't seem right.

[00:17:01] Ben: And so, so these are all my, my rough emotions that I'm having right now. And that's why I thought it might be interesting to.

[00:17:07] Tim: well, first off Ben, your heart matters.

[00:17:11] Adam: knew you were gonna say that.

[00:17:15] Tim: But I

[00:17:15] Tim: disagree.

[00:17:19] Adam: I really like, this topic. At first I thought I was gonna be like, okay, I'll sit through that one. You guys can chat about whatever you want. And, you know, it didn't seem like there was much to talk about there, but the more I thought about it, the more I do like this topic, because initially my mind went to the idea of people disagreeing with me, which I was like, okay, you know, if they're gonna disagree, that's fine.

[00:17:39] Adam: and, and, you know, if they're a team player, then they'll get on, on board with what the team is doing and, and we'll do our jobs. But then, you know, the more I thought about it, the more I was like, okay, well, there, there have been times this week that we've had discussions as a team and people are like, I don't agree with that.

[00:17:54] Adam: Or I wish we could do it this way. For example, all this SOC two policy stuff. we just, I, I just had to go through and officially define what our privacy policy is. We we've had a privacy policy in the past, but given the opportunity to review. You know, an enterprise template for a privacy policy, we kind of compared it to ours.

[00:18:13] Adam: And I brought up some things where it's like, okay, well, you know, technically we don't do any advertising. So, you know, there was something about, you know, we share your information with, analytics and advertising and social media and this and that. And, so I was like, you know, kind of brought that, that paragraph into the team.

[00:18:27] Adam: And I was like, here's what I think we should do to this. And other people were like, you know, we, we have some people on the team that have very strong feelings about privacy. You know, we have one guy who switched to Linux, not be, not necessarily because of privacy, but I think that it probably influenced his decision.

[00:18:46] Adam: You know, he just wants to be in control once, as vanilla. And, I, I guess I have to imagine to some extent, you know, apple and, and Microsoft are collecting and using our data

[00:18:55] Adam: and. We agree to that in the terms and conditions and all of that, that we don't read and click okay.

[00:19:00] Tim: To. Cookies. Yeah. All of them let's take 'em.

[00:19:03] Ben: Yeah, totally.

[00:19:04] Adam: Oh my God cookies. So I, I like this topic a lot and I disagree with you, Ben, but I think in a good way, right? Like, I think that it's a healthy exercise, right? So as a team, especially on a large team, which, you know, I know you're not currently on as your day to day work, you're not on a large team in case anybody hadn't heard.

[00:19:23] Adam: but you know, as, as a team and, and you can kind of think of a company as a, the largest team, or largest level of that team, the, you know, eventually there's gonna be something that you disagree with and that's just the, the direction of the team. And if you're a team player, then you do it. And, and my first thought about this was like, you know, let's take it. A sport, right? So if, if you wanna run one play and somebody else wants to run another play, you know, the coach decides which one's the best play and that's the one you run and okay. I disagree, but I'm gonna run the play that I'm supposed to run. Right.

[00:19:56] Tim: Unless you're Tom Brady. He just does all the calls.

[00:19:58] Adam: then you deflate the football and,

[00:20:00] Tim: yeah, he just coaches the whole thing.

[00:20:02] Communication

[00:20:02] Ben: Well here's let me throw something out here because there have been times at work where a designer has come up with an idea for a feature. And they'll, they'll present it, you know, via email or via slack message initially. And I will have a strong, negative reaction to it thinking this is not a good idea, this isn't designed well.

[00:20:25] Ben: I don't even understand why this would be helpful. And then we'll get on a zoom call and they'll walk through it and they'll get to explain. Here's why we're doing this. And here's why we're doing that. And this is the value add and here's the long term proposition. And when they, when they give me the details, it, it, it, something will click for me.

[00:20:44] Ben: I'll be like, okay, I wasn't thinking about it the same way. I totally get what you're saying now. And, and I wonder if some of the disagreement comes from someone just didn't explain it clearly, or they didn't take the time to, to, to relay the value. And so I think there's definitely an opportunity where we can get rid of some of the disagreement by just being better about voicing why this thing is worth doing.

[00:21:11] Tim: Yeah, no, I, I, yeah. I, and I think you kinda hit the heart of it there. I think it, it is a communication issue. you, you said, I didn't understand. I think that was key. You didn't understand. And they, they gave you more information than you understood. Sometimes the information that you need, you might not be privy to.

[00:21:27] Ben: Right.

[00:21:29] Tim: So for instance, it's, it's funny, we're talking about this today. I saw, Ben fer. Pharrell Ben PLL. he works for Adobe. So he posted a friend of mine. He posted, after seven years, I should realize by now that when things stop making sense at work in executive leadership seems crazy with weird decisions.

[00:21:46] Tim: Yep. We're making a secret acquisition. And today Adobe announced they're spending 20 billion in cash and stock to acquire Figma. And so, I mean, and that is, I mean, sometimes, sometimes leadership can't tell you all the details,

[00:22:03] Tim: there's stuff they need you to do. There's stuff they need you to do to make something happen.

[00:22:08] Tim: That is a company goal, but they can't tell you why there's privacy issues. There's, you know, particularly when it's buying another company or, you know, some sort of, you know, stock kind of thing, they can't tell you they're just do it. And you're like, I don't understand. And. We don't care if you don't understand, just do it.

[00:22:26] Tim: Cause we're gonna merge with this other company be bigger and, you know, hope. Although actually Adobe stock went down today, but it should go back. It should go up after this. So yeah, sometimes there's just, you're not privy to the information that that's that's being given, or like you said, it was just poorly communicated that the use case was not fully understood.

[00:22:49] Moral Differences

[00:22:49] Adam: I, I, I think those are totally valid, occurrences. Those things do happen, but I don't think that they explain all

[00:22:55] Ben: Oh, agreed. A

[00:22:56] Adam: for example, for example, we had somebody on the team when we were doing this privacy policy stuff who, you know, like I said, there's a bunch of people on the team that are very privacy focused in the way that we treat our home networks and devices and what we, you know, what we will and won't do online, that sort of thing.

[00:23:10] Adam: when we were discussing this, they decided to like, I'm just gonna throw this out there. You know, what, if we, what if we took a moral stand and said, not only do we not give your information to advertisers and, and social media companies and all this stuff and analytics, but we won't so like, Our product.

[00:23:28] Adam: we allow our customers to skin the product, right? They can add their own CSS and JavaScript and, and stuff. And as a result, they can throw in their own Google analytics or their own advertising stuff. Not that any of them are putting ads on the pages, but in theory, it's possible. So we have to represent that in our privacy policy.

[00:23:48] Adam: And the, the idea that this person was throwing out was like, what if we just said, we won't allow, like we're taking a moral stand. We don't believe that these are good things for the health of the internet at large. And so we won't do this with your information and we won't let any of our customers do it with your information.

[00:24:05] Adam: And I think that would be an awesome thing, but ultimately we're not going to, turn away potential customers because, you know, because of that moral stand, if we did that, I think that

[00:24:18] Tim: And could you even stop them,

[00:24:20] Adam: possibly, yeah. I mean, it it's shaky ground, right? Like. Technically is it possible probably even if you're gonna make it a manual, you know, somebody's job every morning is to review the latest changes to website skins and see, oh, okay.

[00:24:35] Adam: Did they add any JavaScript files? Let's go look at what that

[00:24:37] Tim: but now you have an adversarial comp with your customers, which is not good.

[00:24:41] Adam: right. And these are the people that you're trying to get to give you more money and all this stuff. So it, you know, it was like, you're not wrong, but this is just sort of the cost of doing business. Like we're, we are gonna do our part to make sure it's done intelligently and securely and, and not in a terrible for humanity type of way, but some of it is necessary.

[00:25:03] Adam: And so that I think is a prime example of disagree and commit, right? Like we're gonna have moral differences on what we think should be the path forward. The company has to make a decision and then we just all have to live with that and abide by.

[00:25:19] Tim: so it, it, I mean, I don't know how other companies run. I've been the same company effectively for 22 years now. So what we do is we have an annual strategy session where the leaders, you know, and so we have, C level and director level. We have everyone kind of come together. Try to do it in like an offsite where we're spend like three or four days, you know, we're a house somewhere in Florida or somewhere, and just have a, alright, what is our strategy for next year?

[00:25:49] Tim: And everyone can like give their input, like into what we're doing. And sometimes, you know, I don't agree with necessarily the direction we're going with, but I've had my say, right. I've had my say. And I like, okay, I don't think this is gonna work. and there's been several decisions that, that have happened that I'm like, I'm a hundred percent sure this is not gonna work and you're gonna come around to my, to what I suggest.

[00:26:13] Tim: and I think that comes with maturity. Like when I was younger, I would like die on that hill and it, I would get beat down. Right. Like I would just die on the hill. I'd make the point. And as I got older, I'd realize, you know, what, if, if I'm right, I'm. Eventually it'll come back around to my opinion.

[00:26:30] Tim: And they'll see that what I was advocating was right. And if not, I was wrong. So dying on that hill is really a martyrs game. And I don't wanna play that because it just makes you, makes people see you as a hindrance to progress. And sometimes progress goes up backwards. So when it goes backwards, they're like, all right, let's try something else.

[00:26:52] Tim: And they come around to your idea. Of course, by that time, it's their idea. but I just, I just, I just feel like, king George from Hamilton and I'm singing, you'll be back

[00:27:05] Tim: like

[00:27:06] Ben: I love those songs.

[00:27:07] Tim: I will fight the fight and win the war. And yeah, I mean, I just had just yesterday had an example, something I fought tooth and nail I'm like, listen, this is not gonna.

[00:27:19] Tim: And I had someone from multiple levels up and the corporation go, yeah. So we tried this, you know, four years ago and it totally didn't work. And now we're doing this and this is exactly what I said we should do.

[00:27:32] Ben: Mm-hmm

[00:27:34] Tim: and I just go, that's a great idea.

[00:27:38] Adam: wish I would've thought of that.

[00:27:40] Tim: I wish I would've thought of that boss. So yeah, so I, I disagreed, I let it known. I'm like this, I don't think we should do this. We should, for these reasons. And exactly those reasons proved to be true and now, but I committed, I didn't fight it. So for like five years, these past five years have been living on this conditions of having to live under this bad decision, which at the time they, they felt it would be good.

[00:28:05] Tim: So I'm like, all right, we're experimenting, experimented. It didn't work. And now they're going back to exactly the thing that I said should work. So, but. Unless they're listening to this podcast. They're not gonna there's no, come up in. So I'm not saying I told you so I'm like, this is a great idea. This is definitely what we should do because you know what it is.

[00:28:23] Tim: It was five years ago and it is today.

[00:28:26] Getting Buy-in

[00:28:26] Ben: Absolutely. it's interesting that actually all three of us here on the call have been with our respective companies for quite a long time. I know Adam and I have been like a decade. You said what? 22 years you've been at at

[00:28:38] Ben: bananas.And, and I, and I think maybe part of why I get so emotional about this is because I have been at the company for so long.

[00:28:46] Ben: So what that means is I end up having to maintain the decisions that someone else made that I didn't, that I didn't agree with. And so I think there is a certain amount of bitterness about that, that, that every day there's areas of the application, for example, that I want to be able to improve, but I find it very challenging because of technology decisions that were made years ago that I didn't agree with then.

[00:29:11] Ben: And I don't agree with now. And it's just makes me angry. And I, and,

[00:29:16] Ben: I, so I had mentioned this idea on Twitter and, and one or two people were like, more or less to paraphrase were like, you just have to be professional. Like you can't do a crap job because you don't agree with the things that are being done. And, and I don't want to paint the picture. That I would purposefully do something subpar because I wasn't enthused about it.

[00:29:38] Tim: sabotage.

[00:29:39] Ben: Yeah, exactly. The, I, I wanna let's take that off the table immediately, but I will say that I think I would just naturally be more effective and, and be more productive and maybe even make better decisions when I do fully agree with the thing that I'm building, as opposed to, I, I just feel like some part of me, I don't know how consequential it would be, but some part of me is gonna be turned off when I'm doing work that I don't agree with.

[00:30:10] Tim: Well, I'll tell you for personal experience during a time period, after the decision that I talked about, like five, six years ago, that was made that I totally didn't agree with. I did not go above and beyond.

[00:30:21] Tim: I left at five o'clock every day. I didn't do anything extra. there was no side projects that I would skunk works that I'd try to throw out.

[00:30:29] Tim: They, they were getting, they were getting a paycheck for me. That was, that was it. I was like, Nope. And then when they started, like to say all. You know, make this your baby again. And here's, here's the plan for you to take over stuff. I'm like, all right, now I'm back in now I'm back in the game. Now. Now I'm building new stuff, creating new stuff, working, you know, coming up with new ideas, contributing them.

[00:30:50] Tim: But before that, it was like, before that like three for three to 40 years, like, no, you're just getting my nine to five and that's it.

[00:30:56] Tim: So, yeah, I, I, I agree. Like if you can't get people, getting people getting buy-in is hard, getting buy-in from, from parties is really hard because if you don't get buy-in from everyone is always gonna be friction in the process.

[00:31:10] Tim: And that is the hardest skill to do that, that above and beyond being a good coder and, good manager that has been the skill I've worked. I've wanted to improve the most is getting buy-in from all the stakeholders.

[00:31:24] Tim: if you can do that, you are, will be successful in business.

[00:31:26] Tim: If you can get buy in from all the stakeholders, that is the hardest thing in the world, because every person's different, every agenda's different

[00:31:35] Adam: I mean, that's pretty much what the, what is it, how to win friends and influence people or something.

[00:31:40] Tim: I, which I definitely read,

[00:31:42] Tim: but it's still really

[00:31:43] Tim: hard to implement. I mean, there's just some people you're like, I don't care if you it's like, I don't care if you agree. And then they wind up being that spoken your wheel.

[00:31:52] Burnout

[00:31:52] Ben: Well, and also the there's a, there's the idea that burnout people don't burn from the amount of work they have to do. They burn out because they feel powerless. And I feel like if I'm working on something, I don't believe in I'm much more likely to feel burnt out,

[00:32:09] Adam: oh my God. Like you guys keep talking about little things and I'm like, I wanna, I wanna get my turn to

[00:32:13] Adam: talk here cuz uh, no, it it's great. there's just so many things that you, you mentioned, I wanna touch on all of them. So like the burnout thing, right? the closest I've ever come to burnout, like true Carol level, you know, like almost at my house on fire burnout would be I for, for years.

[00:32:31] Adam: So I've been with this company for 10 years at, probably around the four year mark. I, I started to see this pattern of like the way we've been doing things is not going to scale as we continue to grow the business. And if we don't make significant investments in improving our ability to take on more customers, our day to day lives are going to get worse and worse, like exponentially compared to the number of customers that we bring on.

[00:33:01] Adam: And I saw this list like freight train coming at us. And, Steve agreed with me, but his opinion was that, we weren't there yet. It wasn't time to make that investment yet. and so this was something that he and I butted heads on, not to the point of like, you know, yelling at each other, but it was just like constant disagreement.

[00:33:21] Adam: and we were very civil and respectful about it, but it was like, I really wish I could do this. And he's like, well, I need you to go do that. and, like, you know, like, so like what you're saying, because I could see these problems coming and I could see how much it already was affecting us. And it was only going to get worse.

[00:33:38] Adam: I was starting to burn out from that. now, or recently we've started to make these moves to become multi-tenant to, make ourselves more scalable. And that has been just this huge source of motivation and, and interest in my work. And it makes me excited to show up in the morning and, and to solve hard problems.

[00:33:57] Adam: and like, it's just, I exactly what you were talking about, Ben, like when, when our interests and our, strategies are aligned, it's like a magic spell, right. It

[00:34:09] Ben: It's like you get into the

[00:34:10] Adam: it's good for the business. Yeah. It's good for the business and it's good for the employee and everybody is growing and, and succeeding and doing better

[00:34:19] Ben: I, if I can side ran for one second, sorry.

[00:34:22] Ben: Uh, no, never side ran. No, no

[00:34:24] Ben: side

[00:34:24] Ben: quest

[00:34:25] Tim: all the time.

[00:34:26] Living With Disagreements

[00:34:26] Ben: so, and, and I've, as I've mentioned many times before I'm on the legacy platform, yada yada yada, in the, in the modern platform at work, it's very, very heavy in the microservices direction. That's a whole other conversation about this very topic onto itself. but at one point, a lot of what we've done on the modern platform is we've had to create feature parody with what was on the old platform. And one of the things that you could do on the old platform was essentially tag screens with a status. So it like a con bond board status, you know, to do in progress needs, review, approve that kind of stuff.

[00:35:02] Ben: They were going to recreate this on the modern platform and someone who was working here at the time, who's no longer working here, said, Hey, instead of just doing that for screens, we should make it a generalized service so that anything in the platform could be tagged with anything. And at the time I was like, but not everything is tagged with everything.

[00:35:25] Ben: Just screens are tagged. Why don't we solve that problem first? And then worry about generalizing it in the future if we ever have to. And I felt

[00:35:34] Tim: You're solving a problem

[00:35:35] Ben: yeah. yeah. I felt very strong about it. but I was on the legacy platform. So like I kind of didn't care. And I hate to say that because it's still the company I work at, but I was like, you guys can make whatever decisions you want, you have to live with it.

[00:35:48] Ben: and so they made the decision to make a very generalized service. So now it's yet another service that has to be maintained. All the people who have worked on that service are no longer working here. And now there's teams that have to maintain this, that don't know anything about it. And, and it costs money to have additional services.

[00:36:04] Ben: And again, it's like one of those things where I, I just wish I had disagreed harder and louder to some extent, and now it would be easier for those people to maintain. That's not a huge value add to the conversation. It just like, it just popped into

[00:36:19] Ben: my head.

[00:36:21] Tim: I, I think as exemplary of, of the idea that, I mean, they came around eventually to realize you were right. Right. So

[00:36:27] Ben: well, but the, the, I think I still think I'm right, but now there's still this generalized service that someone has to maintain and it, and it's

[00:36:35] Tim: But, I mean, you have to think of yourself, right? I mean, so like I said earlier, your heart matters. So had you stood on, you died on that hill, sometimes doing that can cost you your job.

[00:36:45] Ben: Yeah.

[00:36:46] Tim: Let's just be honest. People are like, someone is just being, you know, if, if you have like a group momentum and they're saying, no, this is the way to go, but Ben doesn't agree.

[00:36:56] Tim: He keeps fighting and he won't shut up and he won't eventually just gotta relent or you realize, you know, your head could be on the chopping block. So

[00:37:06] Tim: I mean, that that's been my experience in life. It's like, sometimes it's like, all right, listen, I made my, I, I have my say, I don't have my way, but that's okay.

[00:37:15] Ben: it actually

[00:37:16] Adam: Dude that was a Haku

[00:37:18] Ben: it actually happened to me. No, I didn't get fired or anything, but when we were very early on in the monolith versus microservices conversation, and I was very, very heavily in the monolith group. yeah, surprise. And I kept talking about it in the various slack channels and like, oh, monoliths, make this so much easier.

[00:37:39] Ben: And, and like, look how fast I was able to. And, and the, the CTO at the time pulled me aside and was like, we've decided to use microservices. You can no longer talk about the benefits of monoliths in public channels anymore. He said, it's not. He said, it's just not good for team morale. So you're not allowed to do that.

[00:37:57] Tim: And

[00:37:57] Tim: what did you do?

[00:37:58] Ben: I, I stayed quiet for a while until you know, enough to the people, enough of the people went to work on the microservices. And then I slowly started to merge some of my microservices back into the monolith. for fun and profit,

[00:38:11] Ben: but, you know, I will, I will, again, caveat that I have not always been right. There are things that I have disagreed with that have turned out to be the right decision anyway. And. You know, so it, it, it's not like my sense of disagreement is a litmus test in and of itself in the accuracy of decision.

[00:38:30] Adam: So what would Ben

[00:38:31] Ben: Yeah.

[00:38:32] Ben: Yeah. I, I mean, just like a very trivial example. So when we first built the app, all of the avatars were square and then base camp, I think base camp was like the first company that started to use circular avatars. And I remember Clark coming to me and him being like, oh, look at these circular avatars.

[00:38:49] Ben: They're so beautiful. They're so organic. They just fit so much better in the UIs. And I was like, no circular avatar was a gross, that's disgusting. Like everybody loves square avatars. And now, you know, fast forward 10 years, everybody was basically using circular avatars and, and they look really nice. And I was definitely very wrong about that.

[00:39:08] Ben: not that they're always necessary. So like slack, for example. Right. And, and discord, they all use square avatars. So it's, it's still design contextual specific, but I was definitely

[00:39:18] Adam: I think Discord is circular,

[00:39:20] Ben: Are they circular?

[00:39:21] Adam: right? I, I gotta go look. Yes. So

[00:39:24] Adam: slack uses rounded, rounded squares. The, the borders are, there's a border radius, but it's still mostly square and, and discord

[00:39:31] Adam: is

[00:39:31] Ben: now I gotta double check slack. Am I totally wrong? No slack uses squares and then so Discord uses rounded ones, but then, but then it looks like, oh, when you go into a team though, the team avatars is like a rounded rectangle anyway, not to sidetracked

[00:39:53] Adam: welcome back to the slack avatar podcast.

[00:39:56] Ben: I, I, I only brought that up to underscore the fact that I'm, I'm wrong a lot of the time. I don't wanna say the majority of the time, but you

[00:40:04] Adam: Sure. Yeah. I mean, and, and going back to something that Tim said, you know, like sometimes it's important to die on that hill and take a stand and like we were having a discussion. I'm pretty sure it was today in our, podcast Discord with some of the listeners about, password complexity. Right. And I, I just said like, I will let you fire me before I implement a password form that allows a one character password.

[00:40:31] Adam: like, cause I think one of the listeners said like, you know, they had a, a VIP at the company that was like, I just want my password to be one. Let it be the number one. And like, no, you can fire me or you can have a better password. Those are your choices. Like I, I am of the personal opinion and, and my professional opinion is no password should be less than 30 characters, long

[00:40:55] Ben: We have a, we have a guy at work, actually. One of my coworkers, Sean, he, his, one of his soap boxes. He has many soap boxes, but one of his soap boxes is password complexity. And he's like, he's like, NIST doesn't even want you to have complex passwords. And they're like the, the, the people who outline the standards, they're like, why do you have to have a number in your password?

[00:41:16] Ben: That is this you like 1995 is gone.

[00:41:19] Adam: you're talking about like the need for it to be, have a, a uppercase and a

[00:41:23] Adam: lowercase character and a number. And.

[00:41:25] Tim: It should be a phrase.

[00:41:27] Adam: Right. It should be like dice words basically, I think is sort of the best, best available option right now while we're on the subject of like authority proving a point. Right. here's one of my personal pet peeves and has absolutely nothing to do with code.

[00:41:41] Adam: So sorry for the aside, but, hand dryers in bathrooms that like blow hot air on your hands are the devil, right? Like, first of all, like 20 years ago, maybe not 20 years ago, but a long time ago, MythBusters proved that they are less sanitary than paper towels. They're worse for the environment. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:42:01] Adam: They're worse for the environment, all the electricity that they burn to

[00:42:04] Tim: they just spreads strip to caucus

[00:42:05] Tim: all over the bathroom. Like

[00:42:07] Adam: yeah. All those germs that are on your hand when you wash your hands, like all, you know, it's still wet. There's still a little bit there. It's just blown all over the

[00:42:15] Adam: place or actually what's worse. What's worse is. The average person doesn't actually like, you know, do the full, like COVID hand wash

[00:42:22] Adam: thing. They just kind of run their hands under the water real quick. So now you've got germs that are like, you know, aerosolized and, and in liquid. And let's just throw those under the dryer. And so it's spreading it all over the room. So here's, here's the authority thinker. When have you ever gone to the hospital or the doctor's office and used, a hand air dryer, right.

[00:42:41] Adam: They always have paper towels, every single one of

[00:42:44] Ben: Oh, interesting.

[00:42:45] Adam: And yet, you know, all of the, the companies selling the hand dryers and, and, you know, the companies putting them up have signs like, well, it's better for the environment and, you know,

[00:42:55] Tim: no, it's, it's, it's better for the cleaning people cuz they don't have to change the waste basket so often

[00:43:00] Adam: yeah.

[00:43:01] Ben: Anyway, soapbox,I just gonna say

[00:43:03] Adam: put away.

[00:43:04] Tim: I,

[00:43:05] Tim: agree with you. I never use those things. I'm like if there's paper towels and that I'm like

[00:43:08] Ben: I love

[00:43:08] Tim: paper towels.

[00:43:10] Ben: The most ironic thing is that at the, the planet fitness that I go to you walk into the bathroom and they have the hand dryer and on it, they have a sign that says, you know, a thousand tons of paper, you know, however many trees, and this is so much better for the environment. And then you walk out onto the gym floor and they have paper towel rolls all over the place for people to clean the equipment.

[00:43:31] Ben: And you're like, well, there, there goes. That effect.

[00:43:34] Opt-in Work

[00:43:34] Ben: It'd be, it'd be interesting if you could. I dunno how to phrase this. If people could opt to work, you know, like imagine, imagine it was almost like a,

[00:43:43] Adam: I would not.

[00:43:45] Tim: If I could get paid and not work. Yeah.

[00:43:48] Ben: what I mean is, imagine, imagine a, a product leader had an idea for something to work on and they had to sell engineers on it and be like, Hey, this is my idea. This is why I think it's a

[00:43:59] Adam: the valve model.

[00:44:00] Ben: Like who wants to come work on it with me? Like, let's go do this. And then, so,

[00:44:05] Tim: the what model?

[00:44:07] Adam: I said the valve model. So there's a video game company called valve. They make steam, and like they were, they half life was sort of their breakout thing. and that's the way that their business worked was somebody got an idea for a game and they would just try to get people from the company to come work with them on it.

[00:44:22] Adam: And that was it. Like you weren't assigned to a project. You were, I don't know if they still operate this way. It was a long time ago that I read about that. But, you, you, weren't assigned to work on a product you picked and you picked what part of it you wanted to work on.

[00:44:34] Ben: That's super interesting. I don't know anything about video games, this valve, a like a big company. Like, are they a famous company? Are they still

[00:44:41] Adam: Oh Yeah.

[00:44:41] Tim: yeah,

[00:44:43] Adam: yeah.

[00:44:44] Adam: yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:45] Tim: Steam is like, so, so when, when games kinda like age out, everything winds up on steam and you can get 'em for

[00:44:51] Ben: Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.

[00:44:53] Adam: So Steve is sort of the place to get new games on, on like windows and, and, you know, they support Mac and Linux, but the 90, you know, the 99% of gamers are on windows and that's sort of the

[00:45:06] Adam: marketplace.

[00:45:06] Tim: be.

[00:45:09] Adam: Let's not have that discussion,

[00:45:11] Tim: another, another show

[00:45:13] Adam: so, okay. Let's, let's circle back to disagree and commit. And I think that, so I read the Wikipedia article because everything has a Wikipedia article. and the, the thing that stood out to me about the concept or the management principle as Wikipedia puts it of disagree and commit is that, it is a way of avoiding the consensus trap, right?

[00:45:31] Adam: So instead of like, if, if people disagreeing, would keep things from getting done. that's a problem. Right? So at some point you just have to say like, you know, in jury deliberation, right? at some point you just have to say, well, we're a hung jury. We can't, come to a decision or, or whatever. like in action is worse than doing something that you disagree with.

[00:45:55] Ben: Yeah,

[00:45:56] Tim: Yeah,

[00:45:58] Adam: The opposite of action is in action. Then

[00:46:00] Ben: well,

[00:46:02] Tim: as, and so at our company, how we deal with that. So I talked about our strategy session. So prior to going into a strategy session, what you do, what we do is, so we, we meet with our individual teams, right. And say, all right, because you have a preparation period of where here's what we're gonna go into the strategy session and say, here's what we're working on next year.

[00:46:21] Tim: Here's the goals. And you kind of collaboratively build that with your team, right? So all your developers, your marketers, your sales team, everyone, as a team says, all right, here's what you, as you know, the director of the company need to go in and say, here's what we're gonna deliver. Here's what we're gonna present.

[00:46:41] Tim: And so you go in and you present that you're gonna get feedback from it. Hopefully people accept it. They don't, if there's some pushback, now you have to go back to your team and say, all right. So they agreed with this, this and this. They totally disagreed with this. And here's why, and you explain why, and hopefully you can like come up with some compromise on the things that are disagreed on.

[00:47:03] Tim: But I, I feel that people don't necessarily need to get exactly what they want. They just need to know that they

[00:47:10] Tim: had input into what was decided rather than being dictated down to people hate that people don't not like being told here's what you're doing, and I'm not gonna tell you why they wanna say, here's what I wanna do.

[00:47:24] Tim: Right. And you kind of build all those. Here's what I wanna do. And you can say, all right, we can do 90% of what you all said. You wanted to do this 10%. We're gonna have to do it somewhat differently, or we're not gonna do it at all right now. And. That is a lot more palatable to a person than, being dictated to.

[00:47:43] Ben: I totally could see that. Absolutely. Cause I, cause I think it kind of goes back to that feeling of powerlessness is what drives burnout. You know, if you can feel like you had some degree of contribution. In steering something or, or, you know, developing something then I, I think that really goes a long way.

[00:48:01] Tim: And I, from, from experience, a lot of times, a lot of people don't even really

[00:48:05] Tim: know what they wanna do. They'll come into a strategy session and say, I don't know, you know, and they'll hear something go, okay. I agree with that. Or like they, or they don't contribute anything. And then when you come out later with all, here's what we're doing for next year.

[00:48:19] Tim: And they're like, maybe for some, I don't know, they just weren't present. You're like you had complete opportunity to say that during our strategy session where, you know, we were building the strategy, so you didn't bring it up, but maybe next year, just be a little more. Because, you know, sometimes people just aren't there there's stuff going

[00:48:37] Tim: on in their life.

[00:48:38] Tim: They're, you know, they just don't bring stuff up. So as long as they know there's a venue for it, I think that's, that means the most.

[00:48:45] Ben: It, this reminds me of a quote only very, very lightly related and I've, and I've tried to Google this in the past and I can't figure out who said it. but the quote is people don't mind being used as long as they aren't forgotten. And I, and I think it

[00:48:59] Tim: Hmm

[00:49:00] Ben: there's, there's something in my Tumtum where I totally get that.

[00:49:03] Ben: It's, it's this idea that a as long as you're acknowledged, and this goes back to my love languages, you know, my love languages, compliments and not being forgotten is kind of a compliment in and of itself. And, and there's something so powerful about that, that you, you can subject yourself to more negative things if there's, if there's an underbelly of, of positivity and

[00:49:25] Adam: Of recogni.

[00:49:26] Ben: Yeah,

[00:49:28] Tim: Yeah,

[00:49:29] Ben: And when you're told to just tow the line, it almost feels. Someone has forgotten your humanity, that they're just asking you to cast aside your feelings and your, and your thinking on the topic and just do what you're told. You know, they, they forgot

[00:49:43] Tim: Yeah.

[00:49:44] Tim: Beatings will continue until morale improves is never a good philosophy.

[00:49:53] Tim: So you know what? I agree now let's commit

[00:49:55] Adam: Well, so it's funny, you should say that I, I wanted to end on this line. So the guy who kind of coined the phrase disagree and commit was actually part of a larger phrase. And I think that'd be a nice way to, to wrap up the show here. it was Scott Mcneley, who you may know, from sun Microsystems old school computer company is line was, agree and commit, disagree, and commit, or get out of the

[00:50:17] Adam: way.

[00:50:18] Ben: I like

[00:50:19] Tim: for sure. For sure. If you're, if you're apathetic, you really don't have any dog in the game. So

[00:50:24] Patreon

[00:50:24] Adam: All right. Well, this episode of Working Code is brought to you by the opposite of supporters, which as you know, is indifference and listeners like you if you're enjoying the show and you wanna make sure that we can keep putting more of whatever this is out into the universe, you should consider supporting us on Patreon.

[00:50:39] Adam: Our patrons cover our recording and editing costs, and hopefully I can get my microphone situation fixed, and I may dip into the, the war chest from our patrons. So thank you guys for that. so of course, thank you guys so much. And of course, a special thanks to our top patrons, Monte Gavin and Sean.

[00:50:54] Adam: if you wanna help us out, you can go to patreon.com/WorkingCodePod, actually new this week, John, with no H John, welcome to the team. Glad to have

[00:51:03] Adam: you

[00:51:04] Tim: Hey.

[00:51:06] Thanks For Listening!

[00:51:06] Adam: and, of course, as usual, your homework this week, we're doing an AMA. Ask us anything as part of our upcoming 100th episode, spectacular, where we will be eating spicy food to the point of pain and probably vomiting, and, and answering your questions.

[00:51:23] Adam: So you can find the, the link for that in the show notes or on our website, workingcode.dev, And of course, as usual you can, join our Discord workingcode.dev/discord. We'll get you there. Send us your topics and questions.

[00:51:36] Adam: Working code pod on Twitter or Instagram. email us at WorkingCodePod@gmail.com. Voice memos are quite welcome there as well. that's gonna do it for us this week. We'll catch you next week. And until then

[00:51:46] Tim: remember your heart matters, but especially you, Ben.

[00:51:50] Ben: you.

[00:51:50] Tim: welcome.

next episode: 095: Potluck #6 - Unpopular Opinions Edition

prev episode: 093: Sounds Easy! Sure Isn't