092: The Power of No

14 September, 2022

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Ben: This is 30 minutes of work. And they're talking about like, oh yeah, we'll probably be able to put it on our roadmap for, Q2 of financial year, 20, 23. And I'm like, dude, just, just drop what you're doing and do this. Like, it'll literally take less time than what we're talking about right now. You don't have to,

[00:00:17] Tim: they're doing testing

[00:00:18] Ben: well, see that's their

[00:00:19] Ben: fault.

[00:00:22] Intro

[00:00:22] Adam: Okay. Here we go. It is show number 92. And on today's show, we're gonna talk about the power of no, but first as usual, we're gonna start with our triumphs and fails and I guess, I'm gonna welcome myself and Tim back.

[00:00:53] Tim: Hi,

[00:00:54] Ben: You were, you were messed.

[00:00:56] Adam: Thank you. Uh,thanks for holding the Fort down. You guys did a good job. I heard your episode

[00:01:00] Carol: Yay.

[00:01:00] Adam: enjoyed. anyway, Tristan fails, Carol, who turned to go first.

[00:01:04] Carol's Fail

[00:01:04] Carol: Oh guys, I'm going with a big, giant failure. I have been sick since Sunday, so this is going on four days of just feeling like poo. It's very, very bad. It's not a good thing. I just feel awful and have been running a fever. And I think it started as allergies and then went to a sinus infection and it's just kicked my butt.

[00:01:21] Carol: But this week I had the big like plans of, I wanna go try this and I want to just spend some time making this project I'm working on better. And now I have ended up in the corner of I've gotta get this done. So all of those things I really wanna go try are gonna have to just wait because I got sick and I lost all my free time.

[00:01:42] Carol: So now my time I have left in the week needs to be spent just getting the project done. And I'm super bummed out that I don't get to do the fun stuff, but hopefully I'll circle back around to it and do some of the fun play around with it while it's in testing. So. And I gotta get healthy. So that's a thing.

[00:01:59] Carol: Apparently they tell me

[00:02:02] Ben: Yo, that's one of the most frustrating things as an adult, I guess for me, is wanting to do something and then actually mapping it out in my mind when that's gonna be possible and be like, well, it's Thursday now. And I have also all this stuff to do. So probably able to try this on. Next Wednesday. And then you gotta,you gotta just muscle through until Wednesday.

[00:02:22] Ben: It's terrible.

[00:02:24] Carol: And then Wednesday, you end up running a fever and you're like, I can't do crap and now I'm still let down. And that probably didn't help me get to like feeling better cuz I was just bummed out about the things I couldn't accomplish, so, oh well it'll pass that's me. What about you, Adam? Hopefully you have some good news.

[00:02:42] Adam's Fail

[00:02:42] Adam: Uh, no, no, I do not. as we've talked about recently, I'm doing this SOC two project at work. And so my job this week and probably next week, and hopefully please, not the week after that is to, you know, all those like terms of service agreements that you just scroll past and don't read, and then click, I agree at the bottom.

[00:03:02] Adam: I have 21 policies that I have to read the template, make sure it fits our business model. sometimes just remove things, sometimes adjust the wording, whatever, but there's 21 policies like acceptable use policy and ethical business practices, policy and privacy policy and all of these things.

[00:03:19] Adam: And I have to read them and adjust them for our business and make sure that, I'm basically, I'm doing the first pass before I send it all off to my CEO to do the final pass and hopefully, just rubber stamp, most of them. and it's turning my brain into mush. I do, I, my, my day is generally I sit down, I try to get through my inbox and.

[00:03:41] Adam: Any, immediate issues on the start of the day. Of course, I'm on call this week too. So that helps. but, and then, as soon as like the morning fires are all put out, I start reading policies and I just go and go and go as long as I possibly can, which tends to be like between two and three in the afternoon.

[00:03:55] Adam: And it's just like, okay, if I keep going, I'm going to quit. So I need to do something else now. And I have a couple of these little, like, when you get time, work on this projects. And so that's what I've been doing in the late afternoons. But man, this is rough I would not wish this on my worst enemy.

[00:04:12] Tim: it's, uh, cause I mean, it's a different mindset. Some people actually really enjoy this kind of stuff at work. We have a department for this GRC governance, risk and compliance and that's all they do. So they'll maybe ask me a question every now and then, Hey, our, our terms of services says this here, is that really true?

[00:04:30] Tim: I'm like, yeah, that's true. And that's, as far as I have to go on that, but they have to sit there and read all that. and they, I mean, our guy he's from the military, so he's, and he, he used to be an auditor, so he's used to this kind of stuff. It's what he enjoys. So more power to him,

[00:04:44] Adam: takes a special kind of person to

[00:04:46] Tim: As,as a coder, I don't think there's too many people who tend to be coders, wanna create stuff. You're not creating anything in this job. you're just reviewing stuff and looking at policies and verifying policies and

[00:04:59] Ben: Well, I mean, so when you say that, it makes me wonder. is, is, should Adam be the one reading these policies? I mean, I don't know how much your company is structured. I know it's a small company, but like, is this not like more of a job?

[00:05:14] Adam: Well,

[00:05:15] Carol: legal even right.

[00:05:16] Tim: Steve doesn't wanna do it.

[00:05:18] Adam: That's honestly, that's where it is. Like, that's the thing is like Steve's time is more valuable than my time in terms of like his, how much impact his time has on the company. And so that's why it's on me because somebody had to fall on the sword and nobody, and when you take Steve off the board, nobody else is qualified at all. and so it's just like somebody fall on this grenade. And so that was

[00:05:45] Ben: understood. Understood.

[00:05:47] Tim: I mean, hopefully I, if you don't change your policies too much, once you've done it the first time, the next sock will be easier. Cuz it's like, all you really have to do is like, if everything stays, status quo, you're like, okay, it's still good. you, if it, whatever you do is just kind of look at the change log of what you've changed.

[00:06:02] Tim: So

[00:06:02] Adam: Yeah. I mean, in our, long term, like tenure plan, hopefully the business grows a good bit and some of our policies will need to change.

[00:06:09] Tim: yeah. and then by the, then you probably have your own GRC people. So

[00:06:12] Adam: Yeah. Maybe, hopefully, I don't know. I don't know if I wanna grow the business that big, like we're our goal is not like, the Silicon valley hockey stick, like super growth thing. We just wanna make a valuable business and produce outsized impact. Right. We wanna be a team that's small enough that people go really.

[00:06:31] Adam: It's just a number of people that make this product right now. It's five of us. And,we did hire somebody recently, but she hasn't started yet. yeah, we want that number to be impressively low. That's our goal.

[00:06:41] Ben: Like a WhatsApp doesn't WhatsApp have like a shockingly small team for it's I think it's like,it's like 40 engineers or something and they have like a billion users or something crazy.

[00:06:54] Adam: I mean, it's a incredibly focused product from what I

[00:06:57] Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:57] Ben: Yeah. I

[00:06:58] Ben: think it's just

[00:06:59] Adam: it. Don't know that much about it, but I assume it's just, like texting.

[00:07:02] Carol: It's just, and it's encrypted. It's in the encryption.

[00:07:04] Ben: Well, I was gonna say that chat applications in general, feel like a very,I'm gonna say this. It's not gonna sound right, but it feels like a very non-American thing. And I don't mean like, Americans don't need chat apps, but

[00:07:15] Carol: know what you mean, by this.

[00:07:16] Ben: what I mean is like everyone that I know just use.

[00:07:19] Ben: SMS or, iMessage to talk. And so whenever I hear people talk about using other chat apps, I'm always, it always just seems so out of place to me, but I guess it feels like much more of a European thing maybe.

[00:07:31] Carol: So like for Steve, they need it for like availability over wifi, cuz they're in buildings that have no cell service. So you're not able to text people. You actually have to use an app that allows texting over wifi because their buildings are so closed off that there's no service inside of it.

[00:07:49] Ben: interesting.

[00:07:50] Adam: Yeah. I mean, I've done a little bit of reading, not like deep journalism or anything, but just a little curiosity reading on the subject. And it basically what it works out to is like who, every, everybody joins, whatever the biggest bubble is near them. Right. So if you're in China and the biggest thing is what's app, then that's what you're gonna do.

[00:08:07] Adam: Cuz if you try to stand your ground and be like, no, I prefer telegram. Then you're gonna be over there texting

[00:08:13] Tim: by yourself.

[00:08:14] Tim: All alone. yeah. I mean, we've gotten off a total side

[00:08:18] Carol: Yeah, we did.

[00:08:19] Ben:

[00:08:19] Tim: I have WhatsApp for my European family so that we have a group chat. Right. And that's the advantage over SMS is like, you can have these individual groups. And then my parents, my family uses telegram for some reason.

[00:08:33] Tim: I don't know why my sister chose it. And then when we went to Japan, we made a whole bunch of friends over there. We keep in touch with all of them with line it's an app called line that cause I was trying to talk to people in Japan on WhatsApp and they're like, nobody uses it. Nobody uses it. The only one that used, it was a guy who lives it's Japanese, but lives in America.

[00:08:51] Tim: And he introduced me to all these other folks and they're like, oh, we don't use that. We use line. So I'm online and there's all these, you. People from Japan on it. So it's like I have all these apps to keep with up with these different groups.

[00:09:02] Adam: Line is big for Chinese too. Yeah. Okay. Let's let's uh, get back on the, the trail here. Uh, that's my fail brain is mush. so Ben, how about you, man?

[00:09:14] Ben's Triumph

[00:09:14] Ben: I'm gonna go with a triumph. it's a triumph born out of sadness, I guess. so I've talked about this before that at work, I, I sometimes feel a little, like I fly under the radar and people don't necessarily have any appreciation for some of the things I do. And my triumph is that I've just decided to become my own champion.

[00:09:32] Adam: I'll be your sponsor. Wait. Okay. Sorry. wrong program.

[00:09:36] Ben: I have for a while now been making demo videos internally at work, after I deploy things. but as of like, I can't remember if it was last week or this week, maybe it was like, as of the end of last week, I've decided to make versions of those videos that are okay to share publicly. And I've been posting them on, LinkedIn and Facebook and stuff and just be

[00:09:56] Carol: I'm proud of you.

[00:09:57] Ben: yeah.

[00:09:57] Ben: Like, Hey, look, this is a cool thing. Or at least I think it's a cool thing that I built and check it out. and it's kind of funny because I feel like I get a better reaction in public than I do at work, which, I don't know, whatever. I'll take a, I'll take the compliments where I can get them.

[00:10:09] Ben: So

[00:10:10] Ben: I'm just, I'm excited to celebrate my own work.

[00:10:12] Carol: Since talking to you for several weeks about this I find myself giving lots of kudos for very small things, because I realize that some people, their language is being praised and it's being acknowledged for their work. And even though I feel like it's something minor, I can tell that by them bringing it to my attention, like, oh man, I was able to solve this.

[00:10:35] Carol: And in my head, I'm going. Yeah, you should have been able to solve that. But I know that sounds silly, but I'm like, oh, this was a challenge for them enough that they pointed out that, oh, I resolved this. So I'm like, good for you. Like, I am so proud that you like, show me what you did. Like, I wanna know what you did.

[00:10:50] Carol: Like, let's look at your PR, let's go through it. Let's add some people to this. So they see what you did. And then everyone can be like praising you and being like, yay, great job. And it's all because I see the impact that it has on you from not having those little like kudos. So I wanna make sure that my team is rewarded in the way that they need to be rewarded.

[00:11:10] Ben: along those same lines, I have become much more cognizant of myself giving out positive feedback because I think I used to be much

[00:11:18] Adam: Are you being more stingy with it now

[00:11:22] Carol: I didn't take it that way. I took it as like it's free flowing.

[00:11:25] Ben: Yeah. I think I used to be, I'm a very heads down person. I'm a very, self-involved like very highly focused. I don't like to get involved in lots of little chit chat at work. So it's hard for me sometimes to, I think, connect with people unless it's dedicated conversation space. and I think I have historically not been super great about complimenting people and think not thanking them, but I think just like going above and beyond and praising.

[00:11:50] Ben: and since I've become more aware of how it negatively impacts me. Now become more cognizant of doling out the praise as well, and kind of being, being the praise that I wish to see in the world.

[00:12:03] Carol: Good for you.

[00:12:05] Ben: all good things.

[00:12:06] Carol: Yay.

[00:12:07] Ben: what about you, Tim? Take us home.

[00:12:09] Tim's Triumphs

[00:12:09] Tim: Well, I'm gonna do it too for, since you know, I, I missed last week's. I just, things ran overtime for me. I wasn't able to get on, but, so the one from last week was I, I poured, so I have a product that uses a third party product and that was not PCI compliant. and I don't know why I poured it once before and, but I just was kind of dreading doing this.

[00:12:29] Tim: Cause I thought everything would fall apart. And, I was moving it from one vendor to another vendor

[00:12:34] Tim: and they have

[00:12:35] Carol: that what porting means? I, I was gonna ask what you mean by porting.

[00:12:38] Tim: Sorry. That was kind of kind of of obscure. yeah, so I was moving from one vendor to another and they have different back end code. They do the same thing, offer the same service.

[00:12:45] Tim: It's sending SMS messages and voice recognition and stuff like that. and I dunno why I was so scared, but I eventually just buckled down saying, I'm gonna do this today. Did it that day. And I had to change two files. So it's like, I don't know why I was so scared cuz I had architected it in such a way that it was, they weren't so tightly coupled because old me, Tim from yesterday year, would've wrote this spaghetti code kind of version of, you'd have to copy and paste and search and find, but it's like smarter Tim experience, Tim figured out, you know what, if you kind of decouple all this and use object to oriented programming, all you have to do is extend a couple things and you're like, oh, done.

[00:13:19] Adam: Use the prophylactic pattern

[00:13:21] Tim: prophylactic what's that?

[00:13:24] Adam: and doing anything dangerous. Wrap it up.

[00:13:27] Carol: Gosh. Oh boy.

[00:13:33] Tim: I like it. And so that's my first one. My second one is I finally moved over to vs code this week.

[00:13:40] Carol: Hell

[00:13:40] Carol: yeah.

[00:13:41] Adam: oh, you don't know that? the new hot, no, just go ahead. I'm just kidding.

[00:13:45] Tim: The new hot thing is not BS code. Yeah. I don't mind. I don't mind being like a year or two, maybe even three years behind. It's like, I want tried and true, but it's just nice to have, cuz I work on so, so many different languages. So I've got, we got the scholar language. we do,dot net C plus plus and ColdFusion has a new plugin for vs code that came out a couple months ago.

[00:14:04] Tim: And so I finally just bit the bullet and said, all right, II'm gonna switch over to this. And yeah, it's I'm definitely not a power user by any means. I's like, I'm sure there's a whole lot of things I'm not doing that it can do, but just, it's just nice to have all my stuff in one code editor without having to switch between stuff.

[00:14:20] Carol: It's great. And I didn't hear you say you added co-pilot. Where was that at? In your list of things to add.

[00:14:26] Tim: I'm getting to that. I'm adding that that'll be next week,

[00:14:29] Carol: So I will say the thing with copilot is driving me nuts this week is when I haven't felt good. I've been like, alright, just riding a little bit of code here and there. I keep finding myself just having to press escape all the time. Cause I'm like, no, I don't want you to do that. And I hit tab automatically, cuz I'm just used to next line.

[00:14:45] Carol: And instead it fills in the whole block of code and I was like, no, that's not what I want. Escape, escape, stop.

[00:14:54] Tim: So, so code pot's getting dumber.

[00:14:56] Carol: no it's actually doing right. It's just, it doesn't do some CF things I need very well.

[00:15:01] Tim: okay.

[00:15:02] Carol: then I'm like, oh stop. That's not even valid in CF. Don't do that.

[00:15:08] Adam: Yeah, I've been using it pretty heavily lately. And honestly, there are days that I'm like, this is amazing. The stuff that it's come up with. Like, I didn't give it any hints at all other than the code surrounding it. And it's like, I write a, maybe the method name you could consider like a hint, but you know, start a method, do a couple of setup, things, open a wild loop and it, boom.

[00:15:27] Adam: It knows exactly what should be in the wild loop. And I'm like, oh my

[00:15:32] Carol: stop listening to my thoughts.

[00:15:34] Ben: it is interesting though. the,is that, that's in inte sense, right? Those dropdown menus that you get, I think that's generically referred to as Intel sense.

[00:15:41] Carol: mm-hmmlike whenever it populates, like the next little block.

[00:15:45] Ben: I definitely have periods of work where. I feel like I'm fighting against in inte sense kind, kind like what you're talking about, especially in a, in SQL where as any sane person does, I have like almost all my individual tokens on new lines.

[00:16:00] Ben: So it's like I'm constantly typing and hitting enter to go to the next line. But anytime I hit a comma or anything, it feels like MySQL editor is constantly giving me Intel senses for column names and different built in SQL functions. And I'm, it's like after every keystroke I have to hit escape to close it.

[00:16:17] Ben: So I can then hit enter to move to the next line. And I almost feel like Intel sense needs to be less aggressive just in general across the board. I feel like there should be like a two second delay after every keystroke before in tele sense comes up so that I have to sit there and consciously wait for it

[00:16:33] Adam: Not that you mention it. I feel like I should disable and tell a sense in my database tool entirely. Cause like, I don't

[00:16:39] Ben:

[00:16:39] Adam: think I ever

[00:16:41] Ben: ever, ever use

[00:16:42] Carol: Mm-hmm

[00:16:42] Adam: I accidentally hit the key and it drops something in it's like, no, this is yeah, no, it just I'm typing it all out manually. Anyway.

[00:16:50] Adam: So get outta my way.

[00:16:51] Carol: Yep. Exact same.

[00:16:53] Tim: One day. I want to have someone at work, get on teams with me. You know how teams now, I dunno if you guys use teams, but teams will like, based off what the person type they'll offer a suggestion of a reply.

[00:17:04] Carol: what?

[00:17:04] Adam: Oh,

[00:17:05] Tim: Yeah. Like someone will say, Hey, do you have this document? And it's, it will suggest like, yeah, I have this document.

[00:17:12] Tim: I'll send it to you or no, I don't have this document. And I just wanna get on and just have both of us just like, start, like just typing one first word, like a first sentence prompt, and then just respond back to each other with whatever they suggest. Right. kinda like auto suggest on your cell phone, but for deans, just like, see what it offers.

[00:17:31] Carol: that would be pretty funny to see.

[00:17:34] Ben: Someone at work. we have a Zen desk at work where we keep a lot of our user tickets and then a lot of feature requests. And, I came across a ticket the other day where someone wanted us to build in a auto suggest for commenting so that you could just jump into someone's comment and get a little suggestions like you do in Gmail.

[00:17:50] Ben: I don't know if anyone here uses Gmail and it's one of those moments where on the one hand you're like, oh, that'd be kind of interesting feature. And then on hand you think yourself, but it's literally your job to respond to these comments. Like you should probably be thinking about what you say,

[00:18:04] Carol: Mm-hmm

[00:18:06] Ben: any idea, what the right response is.

[00:18:09] Carol: yeah. I didn't want the automated response that gets me in trouble. Right. Like, I don't wanna be responsible for the person responding with something terrible. And now it's on the engineering. Like why did you let this response be what it generated?

[00:18:21] Tim: screw you. That's a stupid idea.

[00:18:23] Carol: Yeah, I'm saying no, we're not doing that product.

[00:18:27] Tim: oh, speaking of saying no.

[00:18:29] Carol: oh yeah.

[00:18:30] Adam: Hey, maybe that's a good way to transition.

[00:18:32] The Power of Saying "No"

[00:18:32] Adam: So the power of no.

[00:18:35] Carol: No means know you guys, do you got that?

[00:18:38] Carol: No means no. Yeah. So, I don't know if you've guys had to deal with this in your past, but I've been in multiple roles where things just get handed to me where they're like, oh, we signed this contract. So now we've gotta get this done. we know there was no time to get it done, but someone's already agreed to it.

[00:18:57] Carol: And I feel like as a contributor to the code, so I'm an individual contributor and I'm also a manager. I have never really realized how hard it is sometimes to say no to people, but I've also saw how important it is. Right. So I know what happens when someone just says yes, when you have a yes, man in the middle who just agrees to everything and now the whole team is paying for it.

[00:19:21] Carol: And I. Do my best to say no when it makes sense. So if we don't have resources, no, we can't do that. And if you agree to it, that's on your butt. Like you're gonna have to cover that. My team's not gonna work extra hours. They're not gonna pull magic code outta the hat that just makes this happen. Like we want quality products delivered in a timely manner.

[00:19:46] Carol: So having that middle layer say no for you is just super important. And a challenge. there are days when it just feels like I could stop the arguments and go, yep. All right. You know what? We'll work a couple nights and we'll get it done, but yet I still go, no, I'm like, we're not gonna do it. So pushing back's important for your team and it's good for the quality of your product as well.

[00:20:07] Carol: So I dunno if you guys have had to deal with that in your roles or what you do, but saying no means a lot when you're the person riding the code and there's no time to ride it. And to feel like the people above you have your bat.

[00:20:20] Adam: Yeah. That was exactly where I was gonna go. Was like, it's a huge gesture to your team as the manager to, to, say no to protect them from overwork or, things that are maybe urgent, but not important, or, whatever your rubric is for

[00:20:34] Adam: discerning. Yeah, buddy,the, yeah, just it's good for your team. And I just wanted to say good job, Carol.

[00:20:42] Carol: Thank you. And it's not,just that it's also the shuffle, right? Like if every time product came in and said, we have this new urgent thing, if the people at my level are just saying yes, then. People are starting. Like my engineers would be picking up work and starting it. And then halfway through, we would be shifting resources and going stop what you're working, pick up this new project.

[00:21:04] Carol: Like I understand like you're halfway through it, but just quit it because now they think this is more urgent. And I think slapping them in the face and going look here is everybody on the team? Here's everything that they're working on. What's more critical to you. And if something that you have today is more critical than what was like the critical list yesterday.

[00:21:25] Carol: Why didn't we know about it? Like my team shouldn't be stopping what they're doing to just pick up something new. That's not gonna happen because my people are gonna get burned out. And when the engineers get burned out, there's no one to write the code and these people have busted their butts to make this product good.

[00:21:39] Carol: So it's my job to stand up for them. So I hope I'm doing a good job. I'm trying, I've had some rough conversations, but yeah, it's interesting.

[00:21:47] Deadlines

[00:21:47] Adam: it's gotta be such a delicate line to walk because at the same time,sure we all understand and can relate to the fact that like energy kind of ebbs and flows, motivation, ebbs, and flows, and, you know, just sometimes you're more productive than others and you can't really explain why, but I ha one thing that I have noticed is that, when you, when I get one of these, like, okay, can you have it done by the end of the month?

[00:22:09] Adam: And I'm like, I don't know. I'll try, hopefully

[00:22:12] Carol: hate that question.

[00:22:13] Adam: well, but my last project was like that. And it was like, there were, it was a bunch of like dark corners that I couldn't see around. And it's like, I don't, I won't be able to look around that corner until I get halfway down the project. Right. And then I'll understand the problem well, enough to look around that corner, to know how long it's gonna take me to. And so, I started and I'm like, I'm just furiously coding, trying to get stuff done so that I can try to make this, deadline. And even like, to the point where there was this one feature, we called it eyebrows. That won't mean anything to anybody

[00:22:43] Carol: I

[00:22:43] Adam: my team that, which probably none of them listened, but, the, we, that was sort of the code name for it.

[00:22:48] Adam: We were like, every day it was like talking about eyebrows and,how long do you think it'll do take to do it? And I'm like, it's daunting considering the, this other thing that I have to do. and how long it's taking me to get that done. I don't know. It could be three days.

[00:23:01] Adam: It could be three weeks don't know. and

[00:23:03] Tim: to ask though, are your IBLs on flee?

[00:23:07] Adam: the, my, my personal human eyebrows. No, my code eyebrows always.

[00:23:11] Tim: always.

[00:23:13] Adam: but the day that I got to that code, and was able to start working on it, I think I implemented it in like four hours

[00:23:19] Ben: Oh,

[00:23:19] Ben: that's the best

[00:23:20] Adam: Yeah, it's just, but I had no idea it was gonna be that easy. And, but I think that the pressure of having that deadline looming and knowing, okay, not only do I have to get the code working, but I have to write some documentation.

[00:23:32] Adam: I have to have it tested. We have to put it on QA, like end of the month. Doesn't mean end of the month for the code means like, a week prior to end of the month. So we have time to do all the other 90% of the work. Right. You do the first 90% and then there's the last 90%,

[00:23:43] Tim: I'll say this, looking back over my 22 year career in coding, there was a point where I was a yes, man.

[00:23:51] Carol: Really?

[00:23:52] Tim: yeah, there was, and I learned through failure on that.

[00:23:55] Carol: I mean, you're gonna fail if you're a yes, man. There's no way to.

[00:23:59] Tim Was a Yes-Man

[00:23:59] Tim: So it was a point in time. So I ran, we called it, the support department was basically, we didn't do any new development.

[00:24:05] Tim: All we did was support the customers after they went to production. So it was any sort of bug fixes. So development was all they cared about was like, they wanted to get it live as fast as possible. So we can start recognizing revenue. Right.

[00:24:16] Adam: Return 12.

[00:24:18] Tim: They just got it out the door as fast as possible and had no cares about quality.

[00:24:24] Tim: Right. So, and then it comes to us and it's like, I had like a checklist. I had like 50 things. I'm like, these are like things, every time you deliver this to us, all this stuff is broke every single time. And like crickets, no one cared. So it's like, we're just trying to recognize revenue. So I get that. It's a business decision that was made or just maybe wasn't made.

[00:24:44] Tim: It was just, it happened. I don't know, but it happened consistently. And so these things would come in. And so my job is I would have meetings with every single customer, my whole, and I look back now's like, think about me now. I, how much I hate meetings and do everything I do to avoid them. I'm like, Tim back then just did the meetings and sucked it up.

[00:25:04] Tim: Right. It's like my whole day was meetings with customers and customers would like complain complaint complain, cuz you know, this is broken. This isn't broken. We need to fix, fix, fix. And so I'm like, yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it is a legitimate concern. Right. They can't run their business properly without this.

[00:25:20] Tim: So I'm just saying yes, yes, yes. And they're like, when can you get this done? I'm like, we'll have it done by the next, you know, I'll call next week. And of course, if you say yes to everything and it's all gonna be done in a week, it ain't gonna happen. So my whole, my life pattern was make promises this week, the next week make excuses why you didn't make the promises and then repro, you'll get it done next week and add rents repeat.

[00:25:41] Tim: Right. It just was the, and it just got so, so bad. and I didn't solve the problem. What I eventually did is just said, look, I basically, I half the employees of the company worked for me at the time and I'm like, listen, I'm stepping down out of this. I it's like you guys need to build better products in the first place.

[00:26:00] Tim: So if you're building crappy products, you need to support your crappy products, not just throw it over the fence to someone else and

[00:26:06] Carol: Move on to the next

[00:26:07] Tim: that's their problem. Right. So I'm like, I'm stepping down. Like, I don't care. I went from having like 50 people reporting to me, going to, like, I shifted over to, operations, the it side and, running the servers and the infrastructure.

[00:26:21] Tim: I'm like,I'm out. I can't work like this anymore. And then when I got back into like coding and managing coders and everything, I'm like, I'm never doing that again. And what I found was that if you kind of, and to be fair, this was a different product inside the company that was less error prone and less lot less changes, honestly.

[00:26:41] Tim: but when there were things that needed to be done, I would just ask the customer, like, so when do you kind of expect to need this? when you do this, I'm like, oh, probably, sometime next month. And I realized that was never a question that I asked before, I just assumed that they wanted it today.

[00:26:57] Tim: And I think a lot of the things that they were asking for were problems, but we're not problems that they needed right then. And my assumptions kind of shot me in the foot. So never assume that just cuz they're complaining, they're like, it's a problem that needs to be solved right now. ask them, when do, would you like to see this by and your, their answer might surprise you?

[00:27:16] Carol: I will say that is a conversation that might have kind of just happened sort of it's more along the lines of kicking off projects too early it's because the question was asked, when do you think we should start planning this? The assumption was, oh, why haven't you guys started planning this and what resources can I pull from engineering to start working on these projects?

[00:27:40] Carol: When in reality, they were just trying to get a, an idea of when they should put it on their schedule, but then the way it got relayed was. We need people on these projects right now. And why haven't you started looking at it? And one, one little, like misconnect between the product owners and the engineering people can turn into total chaos of this was critical and we haven't started touching it yet.

[00:28:04] Carol: Why haven't we started touching it to only find out, oh, well it's actually not critical. We jumped the gun and we just were trying to figure out when to put it on a map. So we knew when to start planning it. We didn't expect you to pick it up today. So communication is key.

[00:28:20] Carol: It's big.

[00:28:21] Adam: Truth. Yeah. I've been telling my kids like 90% of all hard problems are communication problems.

[00:28:27] Carol: Oh yeah. I agree with that.

[00:28:30] Ben Getting Things Done

[00:28:30] Ben: I will say I am a little bit of a Eastman, but in, in certain circumstances. So I've been working on the same platform for over eight years now. Nine years, I don't know, 10 years. So I, we had an episode. I think I talked about my 10 years actually. Anyway, it's been the same thing for a really long time.

[00:28:48] Ben: And, one of the side effects of that is a deep understanding of how the system works, which gives you kind of an at a glance level of effort, estimation powers that I think a lot of people don't have on newer systems. So if someone from the company comes to me and says, Hey, we need to build something like this for one of our customers, or, Hey, I need to be able to pull a report that aggregates this data for some meeting that we're gonna have.

[00:29:12] Ben: I feel like with a pretty high level of confidence can, in my mind say that's a one hour task, or that's like a, give me a team of five people in six months, kind of a. and if it's the one hour task, I will be like, I'll basically drop what I'm doing. And then go do that because one, I like the compliment of, oh my God, I can't believe you rocked that out so fast.

[00:29:37] Ben: which, that's not a business first strategy. That's a Ben first strategy. but I do think there is something to be said about, this is almost kind of like in the vein of getting things done, the GTD stuff where I think one of their rules is like, if you'll take less than two minutes, just stop what you're doing and do it kind of a thing.

[00:29:56] Ben: and I feel like this is that, but applied to slightly larger scales of work and, I've had

[00:30:03] Ben: a I've. Yeah, I've had a really good, I feel like it's worked out really well for me.

[00:30:07] Tim: Yeah.love the compliment. Like, wow. I can't believe you, you got that turned around so quickly. Thank you for the fast turnaround. It's like, okay. It makes you feel good, but maybe maybe you Rob's another priority.

[00:30:18] Ben: but,and I think we've, I've been in, in meetings like this, and I don't know if anyone else has where you talk about some work that has to be done by another team. And as an engineer, I can wrap my head around what we're discussing and put myself in their shoes and be like dudes, and do debts.

[00:30:35] Ben: This is 30 minutes of work. And they're talking about like, oh yeah, we'll probably be able to put it on our roadmap for, Q2 of financial year, 20, 23. And I'm like, dude, just, just drop what you're doing and do this. Like, it'll literally take less time than what we're talking about right now. You don't have to,

[00:30:52] Tim: they're doing testing

[00:30:53] Ben: well, see that's their

[00:30:54] Ben: fault.

[00:30:55] Carol: I wasn't gonna say testing, but I will say that 30 minutes worth of work made about you in the ass though, because now you're having to support meetings about it. You're having to deal with documentation on it. You're having to deal with, oh, we weren't actually ready for it.

[00:31:10] Carol: So please hold it. And I feel like if you knew this was coming down the pipeline, you could have told me about it months ago, and we could have put it into the roadmap and we could have planned resources for it. And I'm all for like the critical things. When something is truly critical, fine, we can make some adjustments, but those adjustments need to be very low and they need to happen.

[00:31:32] Carol: They shouldn't be frequent. They should be something that no one is used to seeing. So I feel like, what's coming down, you know what you need, if not, you need to do a better job planning. I'm not gonna readjust everything cuz you didn't plan for it.

[00:31:46] Ben: I, I totally get that. I think what's hard on my end is because I get excited about those little tasks where I'm like, oh, I can make someone happy and it's not gonna be that much work because those are such a. An exciting opportunity for me. I assume they are an exciting opportunity For everyone else.

[00:32:04] Ben: So when I present someone with an exciting opportunity and they don't wanna take it,it's very frustrating, cuz it's hard for me to sometimes understand that perspective.

[00:32:14] Carol: so I just got this image of bam walking around with ice cream cones, handing them the people and being like, I don't understand why you don't like ice cream. You're lactose intolerant. What? Everybody likes

[00:32:25] Carol: ice

[00:32:25] Ben: worth it.

[00:32:26] Carol: Take it. it'll make you happy. Yeah. And like early in my career, like when I was working with Tim previously, I was very much, yes.

[00:32:36] Carol: As an engineer,as an engineer, I was like, anything you threw at me? Heck yeah, I can do that. And if I can't do it, I'll stay up all night, making sure I got it done. Cuz I wanna be a rockstar.

[00:32:46] Tim: and you were, but you burned

[00:32:47] Carol: I burn out, I burnt myself out and I feel like my role is now to prevent that from happening to people that I care about, which is everyone on my team and I want to protect them.

[00:32:58] Carol: So I'm gonna say no so that it's not pushed down to them to go, Hey, you wanna do this 30 minute task. It's only 30 minutes. So you wanna go do it? I'm gonna be like, you shouldn't even be talking to engineers, like go back and do some shoot, show away.

[00:33:15] External Pressures

[00:33:15] Adam: So all of this conversation keeps making me think of, it was probably a TV show or somewhere. I don't know. I saw a t-shirt that I liked. and it's on it. It said, failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

[00:33:27] Adam: And

[00:33:28] Adam: I so want that to be my, like my life, my culture. I'm sorry that you are not gonna hit your deadline because gave me one day to do something that should take four days.

[00:33:39] Adam: And you didn't think of asking about it or you didn't think about our role. We, this happened to us recently. We had, we have just this sort of side product that still lives on from our consulting days. It's not anything that we actively develop or sell or anything, but it's just, it's constantly sitting over there generating passive revenue for us.

[00:33:54] Adam: So we're not gonna shut it down. But the company that it, that uses it, changed their CMS and our product like heavily integrated with their CMS. And so, content management system, you know what I think I was using the wrong TLA three letter acronym. It, I meant to say CRM, which would be,

[00:34:11] Adam: Customer relationship manager. they changed their CRM and our. Our product heavily integrates with their CRM and they have this like live event involving dozens and dozens of people. And it's literally for getting people jobs out of college. And,it's like they spend a bunch of time on it throughout the year, getting it set up just right.

[00:34:31] Adam: And then there's like two hours, three hours once a year that's just frenzied, chaos and right. But it's a huge money maker for them. And it gives us a little bit of money and it's like, oh, we changed our CRM. Here's the new one. can you change your thing to, to work with that? And we're like, we have stuff on our schedule.

[00:34:50] Carol: This was not, Things are already going on.

[00:34:52] Adam: right. And they wanted, of course they gave us like, a month or two notice, but it's gonna take way longer than that. And so now who's gonna do it. It's just it's infuriating, cuz it's like, we wanna say no. , but then that basically ends the relationship or, or causes a lot of political sourness with customers.

[00:35:11] Ben: Yeah.

[00:35:12] Carol: Yeah. I really should have caveated this with my customer is my company. everything I write is internal. Everything we do is internal it's. I mean, we have everything that's out there too, but literally who dictates what's coming down, our roadmap is our internal teams. So I'm not answering to any outside facing pressures.

[00:35:33] Carol: It's their answering to those. So,

[00:35:36] Tim: Because outside pressure's even

[00:35:38] Carol: oh yeah.

[00:35:38] Tim: we'll cancel our

[00:35:39] Tim: contract.

[00:35:40] Carol: Yeah.

[00:35:41] Managing Expectations

[00:35:41] Tim: I'll say that. I think how you structure your organization matters in this regard, because if you have a person whose job you have these customer success managers, and I understand why they exist, but if they don't really have any direct control over what is being worked on, then all they can do is just all they're really doing is giving status updates. And so their natural tendency, when they're having a meeting with the customer is to want to please the customer and to make them happy, right? that's their entire job satisfy the customer satisfaction manager. but if they have no control over what actually gets done, they have no insight into what can be done and what cannot be done.

[00:36:25] Tim: So their natural instincts are gonna be say, yes, we can do that. So I, I don't know how to fix that, honestly. I,

[00:36:32] Adam: That's a really good insight.

[00:36:33] Tim: thank you. I think it's kind of, there has to be a conversation with the people who are doing the work and planning the work with the people that are talking with the customer and say, look, here's, what's on the plate now.

[00:36:43] Tim: Here's what we're doing. We're not doing nothing right from the outside, looking in the customer is thinking, oh, you guys aren't doing anything for me. Obviously, people don't go to work and just. Nap all day and stay on Facebook. so they're doing something, but it might not necessarily be what the customer thinks they're doing.

[00:37:01] Tim: And as you said, Adam, it's all a communication problem. I, I think we talk about the power of, no, I think it's the power of no, but

[00:37:09] Adam: Yeah,

[00:37:09] Tim: no, but like a behind, but no, but like, no, listen, we can't do this. No, we can't do this now, but here's when it can be done. Are you okay with that? Here's the expectation.

[00:37:21] Adam: or no, but here's the list of things. If you wanna reprioritize.

[00:37:25] Carol: Yeah.

[00:37:26] Carol: only if we haven't started coding it, if we've already started coding it, that's too much of a loss. We're keeping going with what we're

[00:37:32] Tim: Yeah. we've already started this stuff, so we'll finish that, but we haven't started this other stuff. So where do you wanna fit this in? And I think that's kind of, I've seen a lot of jokes lately. The agile waterfall.

[00:37:44] Tim: And that, that was the promise. That was the promise of agile, right?

[00:37:47] Tim: Is like you just kind of set the expectations. here's a bucket of work. We'll finish this in two weeks or whatever your schedule is. but it's slowly kind of deteriorates into wa waterfall. Right. and that, so managing expectations, that's really what this is all about is managing expectations of the customer.

[00:38:05] Tim: And I found that sometimes I will, a person will ask me, when can this be done? Which is a very loaded question. I will think in my head immediately, like Ben does like, oh, I know this is 30

[00:38:15] Tim: 30 minutes worth of code, right? Mm-hmmBut seasoned Tim today, Tim who got bit by yesterday,

[00:38:24] Tim: Tim.

[00:38:25] Tim: goes, no triple that power of 10 that say, oh yeah, we can get to that in like four weeks.

[00:38:32] Tim: And I've been surprised how little pushback I've gotten. Like, okay. And what happens is we usually deliver it in half that time and they're like, oh, that's awesome. Thanks. And they're so pleased. And that is a completely different mindset with your customer. Whenever you say, oh, we can do this this week and you fail and you say, oh, we can do this in four weeks and you give them to it in two.

[00:38:56] Tim: And they're like, you guys are awesome. My God, you guys rock.

[00:39:00] Tim: And you're like, So it's all perception sometimes now. Yeah. There's things that are like, they can't do business period. you gotta fix the breaking problems, but those are fortunately these days for me, far in and between.

[00:39:13] Adam: Under promise and over deliver.

[00:39:15] Tim: There you go. Under promise and over deliver.

[00:39:18] Ben: it's like in the, early Amazon delivery days, I think this is pre prime you'd order stuff. And they'd say it would take like five days and then it would show up two days later and you'd be like, oh my God, that's

[00:39:29] Ben: amazing. And now I order stuff and it says, it's gonna take two days. And then it takes two days and I'm like, Ugh, gross. Adam when Adam was talking about consulting work, it reminded me of a funny situation that I had years and years ago, maybe this was like 12 years ago back when, Clark and I were doing consulting. And, at one point we were working on like three or four projects at the same time, and we were completely overwhelmed.

[00:39:56] Ben: And to, to Carol's point, we're doing like a lot of task switching and like starting and then stopping and starting stopping. And we're like, you know what? This would be so much better if we just block out time on our calendar so that we can see we're gonna work on this client on these days and this client on those days.

[00:40:11] Ben: And we won't feel so stressed. And when you put four clients on the calendar in one week, it turns out you only have like four hours to devote to any one client. And we looked at that and we're like, oh my God, this is terrible. We can't do any work. And we're like, you know what? Let's not map this stuff out.

[00:40:28] Ben: We were much more efficient

[00:40:31] Adam: Oh,

[00:40:32] Ben: but I mean, obviously,

[00:40:33] Carol: we thrive in chaos.

[00:40:35] Ben: The joke of course, was that we were not more efficient. We were just oblivious to what was actually happening. And by seeing it hard, coded on the calendar, it, it showed us how non tenable our problems were. And, we just chose to ignore that did not, well,

[00:40:50] Hard Decisions - Raising Prices

[00:40:50] Tim: This is kind of related to the power of no, it's a bit, it might be a stretch, but so,

[00:40:56] Carol: If it's yes, it doesn't count. Okay. And being clear here.

[00:41:01] Tim: okay, so we're in the process. So visa, MasterCard, back in March, they increased their rates to everyone across the board. they were supposed to do it in 2020, but because of COVID they

[00:41:11] Adam: Well, you you know, there's an electron shortage, right?

[00:41:14] Tim: Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. I mean, so the cross, but the thing is they're the way they calculate their increases.

[00:41:21] Tim: it's so segmented and diced up in so many different ways. There's zero away that you can figure out, like, it's not like, oh, we're increasing everything by 1%. so it's like they, they dice it and slice it so many different ways. So it was all, so what we did was like, alright, we'll just suck it up this quarter.

[00:41:36] Tim: And we'll see, the effective cost of what the thing was. So it turns out, I mean, some customers actually, they didn't change at all. As far as our Costco, our processing costs with the credit card companies and some changed significantly. So we've been going through that and we've been doing across the board price, increases to our customers.

[00:41:55] Tim: Cuz if you're gonna do a price increase, you might as well. you better make it significant because no matter what, I mean, if it's 1% or if it's 10%, they're gonna complain no matter what. So you might as well go ahead and make a big jump

[00:42:07] Adam: And you don't wanna have to do it every.

[00:42:09] Carol: Yeah, You don't

[00:42:10] Carol: wanna do it again?

[00:42:11] Tim: you don't wanna do it twice.

[00:42:12] Tim: Like, oh, we raised you last year. We're gonna have to, I mean, and we haven't done, honestly, we haven't done price increases probably in 10 years,

[00:42:19] Tim: um, to, to people. so we're having to do that now. And so the power of no, as far as this goes is so, we get pushback and they're like, well, we don't want to, no, they give us a note.

[00:42:30] Tim: Like we don't want it's price increase and we have to go, no, you have to. Because we send them articles and show them, this is coming to us. So we have to pass this along to you and you're gonna have to pass this along to your customer. It sucks. And they're like, well, we don't want to. Well, the only lever that we have is like, well, we're, we'll turn your keys off and you won't be able to process payments.

[00:42:51] Tim: What will that effect be on your company?

[00:42:53] Carol: Huge.

[00:42:54] Tim: your keys off,

[00:42:54] Tim: if you can't take credit card or ACH for, six months during the time where you try to get a new system integrated and that sucks do that to people. But, you try to have a conversation in a polite way, but you know, my gut is like, just wanna say, well, okay, we'll suck it up and we'll take the hit on the financials, but I can't do that.

[00:43:14] Tim: Cuz

[00:43:15] Tim: my higher ups and the company stockholders of the company, they're not gonna suck take that up cuz you know, it's hit or hit us pretty hard. So

[00:43:23] Adam: And you're not running a charity.

[00:43:24] Tim: yep. Not running a charity. In fact, actually some customers went from being profitable because they're their volume is kind of small to being negative.

[00:43:33] Tim: So we're actually, we are paying them for the privilege of taking credit cards because it's costing us more money than we're charging them. And it's like, I would rather lose you as a customer right

[00:43:43] Tim: now

[00:43:43] Carol: and keep dealing. Yeah.

[00:43:45] Tim: than keep losing money. I'm I cannot keep paying a thousand dollars a month so that you can process credit cards.

[00:43:50] Tim: Good. That is not the business I'm in.

[00:43:52] Ben: I still think there's some sort of opportunity knowing absolutely nothing about the credit card industry for someone to come in and start a new credit card that it's not just, I don't know, much more transparent or lower fees or something just feels

[00:44:06] Crypto Talk

[00:44:06] Tim: Yeah, it's called. That's called it's called crypto

[00:44:10] Ben: I was at an ATM the other day that I think offered some sort of crypto. I'd never seen

[00:44:15] Ben: that

[00:44:15] Ben: before. Really

[00:44:17] Carol: Yeah. Yeah. I've seen ones that do the Bitcoin and stuff. Yeah. Like in cash app, whenever I'm paying for things, they're like, do you wanna use your checking account or do you wanna pay from your Bitcoin wallet? And I'm like, you're not touching my Bitcoin it's down right now.

[00:44:32] Carol: Don't don't shoot.

[00:44:33] Carol: You dare touch that. We're not ordering pizzas with anything. That's not making me money.

[00:44:39] Adam: Oh man. So, my, my LinkedIn profile has the fact that I'm technically, on paper CTO. and so I get a lot of like, hire us, type

[00:44:47] Carol: Yes. All

[00:44:48] Carol: the time.

[00:44:48] Adam: I have never hit the spam button in Gmail faster than when those emails contain the word web three. Like do not give a

[00:44:56] Carol: close it. Close it. Close it done.

[00:44:59] Adam: Yeah.

[00:45:00] Tim: it's coming. You're not a believer. Come on.

[00:45:02] Adam: no. I had my fun with doge for a little while.

[00:45:06] Adam: And that was enough to show me like, this is, it is just, I don't, you know what, I don't even wanna talk about it. and it's not that I'm salty cuz I lost a hundred bucks, but that's why I only put in a hundred bucks cuz I figured it would, I would probably lose it. so yeah. Okay. Anything anybody else wants to talk about on this

[00:45:24] Ben: I, I,

[00:45:25] Ben: I have one more thing.

[00:45:26] Carol: No,

[00:45:26] Ben: say

[00:45:27] Adam: well played.

[00:45:29] Tim: Go

[00:45:29] Carol: kidding.

[00:45:29] Tim: Carol.

[00:45:30] Nipping Bad Ideas In The Bud

[00:45:30] Ben: no, just one more thing. and at work, here's something that did not work out well for me or for the company. Honestly, people wanted to do things with the product internally, like people in our product team wanted to build stuff. And I always thought that there was a ridiculous idea that the idea you have, it's not good.

[00:45:50] Ben: It's gonna be so hard to maintain, but I always thought to myself, you'll never figure out how to actually build this. So I'm just gonna say, okay, sure. Why not? And time and time again, someone would toil at that problem for months, and then they would figure it out. And then they would build it and then they would sell it.

[00:46:08] Ben: And then the company was left to maintain and uphold that for years to come. And to this day, the biggest regrets that I have at work were not actually just putting my foot down in those moments and saying, no, that's not a good long-term plan for the company. And

[00:46:26] Tim: It's not profitable.

[00:46:27] Ben: no. Oh my, if you even knew the half of it,

[00:46:31] Tim: Yeah,

[00:46:31] Tim:

[00:46:31] Ben: about like paying for the privilege of having customers.

[00:46:36] Tim: yeah. We've had, so we have like these at work, like hackathon kind of come up with a product idea and the ideas they come up with are so niche and it's like, we had to pick a winner just because we said we'd pick a winner, but it's like, I'm like, none of these will make any money. We, we had offered like, like a percentage, like if your team gets this, we'll give you a percentage.

[00:46:57] Tim: And I'm like, the ideas that came out were so they it's not that they were lackluster. It's just, they didn't, they're trying to solve a problem that, that honestly, wasn't going to produce any revenue it's it was like, I'm fixing a pet peeve. And

[00:47:12] Carol: It's not like they knew the industry and knew what the industry needed.

[00:47:16] Tim: Right. So it's like, like we, we picked a winner and like, okay, if we ever build this, we'll give you a percentage.

[00:47:21] Tim: And I'm like, you guys are getting like 50 cents a month. ain't gonna be nothing, cuz you're not really solving a problem. So just say no to those kind of ideas.

[00:47:30] Adam: Mm-hmmJust say no, like it,

[00:47:33] Tim: Just say no,

[00:47:34] Tim: should be like a

[00:47:35] Tim: drug campaign.

[00:47:36] Adam: Put that on a bumper sticker.

[00:47:40] Ben: Did you ever the movie, blades of glory with will Ferrell and,

[00:47:44] Adam: Of

[00:47:44] Carol: The answer's

[00:47:45] Tim: of course.

[00:47:47] Ben: oh, it's such a good movie.

[00:47:49] Carol: can guarantee you. I've not seen

[00:47:50] Ben: It's, it's a jolly good

[00:47:52] Ben: time,

[00:47:52] Adam: it's yeah,

[00:47:54] Ben: but there's at one

[00:47:55] Carol: blades of glory.

[00:47:57] Ben: about figure skaters, Olympic figure skaters. It's fantastic. But at one point

[00:48:01] Adam: but it's will Ferrell and who's the other guy? John heater? No.

[00:48:04] Ben: I can never remember his

[00:48:05] Tim: hedger. He's the guy from Napoleon

[00:48:07] Tim: dynamite. My.

[00:48:09] Ben: but at one point they're getting ready for a, an ice skating performance and there's a huge banner in the back. It's like the Olympics capture your dreams and, they come to each other and the guy let's do this, capture your dreams. And Wolffer was like, that's beautiful. Where did you come up with it?

[00:48:23] Ben: He goes, I don't know. It just came to me.

[00:48:25] Adam: It is John heat,

[00:48:29] Ben: John

[00:48:30] Ben: Carol

[00:48:31] Ben: definite watch. It's fantastic movie.

[00:48:34] Carol: I will add it to my list.

[00:48:35] Adam: I forget. So we're, this is the part where we wrap up the show and I forget how we start. We started doing this after show tease, right? So before we wrap up, we're gonna give you a little tease of what we're gonna talk about on tonight's after show. And there was some specific way I used to jump into it, but it's so new.

[00:48:49] Adam: And then I missed a week and here we are. So on, the after show this week, I'm gonna talk about a skydiving thing. I've done night jumps before I've done water jumps before where you intentionally land in a river and a boat picks you up, upcoming. And I think, oh God, I think it's like a week and three days or a weekend, two days, something like that.

[00:49:06] Adam: I'm going to be making a night water jump

[00:49:09] Carol: oh, scary.

[00:49:10] Adam: yeah, the pucker factor is high on that one. Um,

[00:49:13] Carol: Oh, man.

[00:49:14] Adam: dude, you share the video of you like jumping out a night jump and I swear, I watched the whole thing. My hands and feet were sweating. I was like buckets of water coming out. I was, they just had tingles all over. Like I was, so I was so scared of

[00:49:28] Tim: Heights and just

[00:49:29] Adam: let's this is the tease. Let's save the actual show content for when we get to the after show.

[00:49:33] Carol: I'm gonna feed off of Adam. So, we, after lots and lots of consideration from things I've heard from Ben are having a conversation with launch darkly.dot dot. So not only you are launching darkly, we might be too

[00:49:50] Tim: Wow. So Adam and Carol will be launching darkly just in different

[00:49:54] Carol: in different ways. We're all

[00:49:56] Adam: I didn't even pick up on that, but that's great. I love

[00:49:59] Carol: I tried,I tried to be funny

[00:50:01] Carol: and you didn't get it.

[00:50:02] Adam: you know what brain is mush.

[00:50:04] Tim: Brain is mush. Hey, and I'm gonna talk about our community. So our hundredth episode, we're gonna a, hot ones, inspired spice tacular as Adam calls it. Some of our community has been pitching in. We're gonna have some special, hot tosses

[00:50:19] Tim: coming up from some of the folks. Yeah. Some folks from, uh, our Discord are chipping

[00:50:25] Carol: Yay. That's

[00:50:26] Tim: It's gonna be exciting.

[00:50:27] Tim: Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk about that in the after

[00:50:29] Patreon

[00:50:29] Adam: All right. Cool. So this episode of Working Code is brought to you by paying for your customers to be able to use your product

[00:50:35] Tim: show.

[00:50:35] Adam: like you.

[00:50:36] Tim: oh, that hurts, man. That hurts. It's too soon.

[00:50:40] Adam: If you're enjoying the show and you wanna make sure that we can keep putting more of whatever this is out into the university, you should consider supporting us on Patreon. Our patrons cover the cost of our recording and editing, and we couldn't do this every week without them special. Thanks to our top patrons, Monte, Gavin, and Sean,

[00:50:55] Thanks For Listening!

[00:50:55] Adam: your homework this week, since we have this episode 100 spectacular coming up.

[00:51:00] Adam: And in case you haven't heard for the discussion part of the show, we are going to basically do an AMA. If you're not familiar, if you're not, on Reddit, basically AMA stands for ask me anything, it's gonna be ask us anything. and you can ask us anything you want. it doesn't have to be tech related.

[00:51:17] Adam: Doesn't have to be podcast related. We reserve the right to not answer your question, but, everything is fair game for the asking. and so if you've got questions, go ahead. head to our website, that's workingcode.dev, and there'll be a link on there to get to the AMA where you can ask your question.

[00:51:33] Adam: in the meantime, you can join our Discord chat with our community, chat with us. you can send us your topics or questions @WorkingCodePod on Twitter or Instagram. you can email 'em to us at WorkingCodePod@gmail.com. You can send us a voice memo and we'll play it on the show. Hopefully the week that you send it in same email address, working code pot, email.com.

[00:51:51] Adam: That's it for this week. We'll catch you next week and until then,

[00:51:54] Tim: Remember your heart matters, even if you just say no,

next episode: 093: Sounds Easy! Sure Isn't

prev episode: 091: Side Project Therapy